Multico single and 3 phase motors

Discussion in 'Electrical' started by desmo11225, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. desmo11225

    desmo11225

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    Hello Every one!!!!! Thank you for allowing me to join your forum, We have a Multico 3 phase thicknesser and would like to install a single phase motor into it instead , it has a 12" blade , what is the power of the motor and how many revs do we need ????? Thank You in advance for your help. desmo11225
     
    desmo11225, Nov 8, 2018
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  2. desmo11225

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    Hi,

    Welcome to the forum desmo11225.

    When it comes to asking for help regarding electrical items there are so many regulations now in place here in the UK that even electricians are scared to offer advice. I'm not an electrician but I've done lots of electrical work over the last 50 years.

    I used to own a Startrite combination woodworker with five functions it having 3 motors all 3hp on three phase the thicknesser was 10"; it was scrap when I bought it so I completely rebuilt it dumping the flimsy power feed to the thicknesser and installing a seperate motor with chain.

    I rigged the electrics up to run from our 240V supply using a single run and single start capacitor; all the motors were identical. Running a machine like this the machine is definitely not on full power but I ran this machine for over ten years without the slightest problem.

    Thicknessing oak..jpg

    Above is a picture of the combination machine thicknessing oak whilst running on single phase 240V; please note the additional modification the motor and chain drive to the thicknesser.

    Workshop_003.JPG

    Above is my home made saw bench single phase 240V; at 4hp it proved too much for the standard mcb tripping this at power up so I installed a "C" type breaker and no problems now.

    IMAG0083.JPG IMAG0101.JPG

    Above are two pictures of something I would definitely NOT RECOMMEND this is a 75kg 3 phase scrap welding transformer which I rewound using conduit wire; I used to own and detest a Transwave 7.5kw static converter this home made 3 phase supply was wound for 415V and it supplied full power unlike the Transwave which struggled with starting anything under load.

    If you have the original 3 phase motor on your thicknesser have a look at the nameplate details; you'll need to know FLA (Full load amps) speed and horsepower; I think your machine given it's 12" capacity will be running a motor at 4 HP. I'm sorry that I won't go into detail as to how to run this from single phase but I'm just letting you know it can be done so time to call in a sparky?

    I don't like static converters.

    Another option if you have the 3 phase motor is to buy a VFD (variable frequency drive known also as an inverter) this would run your machine but these VFD's don't like lots of dust; it would give full power and also variable speed; another job though for a sparky?

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-3KW-...3:g:Zx0AAOSwWD1Zrjvw:rk:2:pf:1&frcectupt=true

    I've got one of these excellent VFD's mine being a 2.2kw (3hp) but I'm running both my Graduate woodturning lathe and Lorch metal lathe from this one VFD; I've added identical 1.1kw motors to the lathes with switching allowing just one lathe at a time to run; the VFD can be adjusted to run the smaller motors and I've owned it for years in fact I might buy another just as a slave VFD for running any machine I decide to buy or build.

    Now for the easiest option; buy a secondhand 4 hp single phase motor; if you're in the UK this will be 240V also a suitable new DOL (direct on line) starter unless you are proficient all the above is highly dangerous and not only can kill it will kill taking no prisoners so DO NOT TAKE RISKS GET A SPARKY IN; very very few sparkies will know how to wind a big transformer like mine?

    I worked at Brook Motors for 24 years but in distribution; the sparkies there wouldn't offer information or advice so I learned the hard way with lots of research before touching anything. A simple mistake with electrics could be the last mistake ever made.

    I hope the above is of interest and as I say I'm definitely not an electrician; the only electrical training I ever received was by The National Coal Board at their Crigglestone Training Centre where I was an apprentice mechanical engineer; I got so far ahead on my course I completed it very quickly it being a 6 month training course; I was quietly allowed home at dinner time but in the mornings I would be nosy and wander over to the electrical training where I was instructed on the safe installation of 3 phase electric motors; I'm a quick and nosy learner but personal safety and safety of others is paramount to me.

    Play safe.

    Kind regards, Colin.

    :)
     
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  3. desmo11225

    desmo11225

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    Hi Colin.!!!!! Well, that certainly is very helpful and would you believe, I worked in the pit in Wales ,only outside though , before the NCB ,starting on 1st of January 1940, what you've said is we should be able to change the 3 phase motor to single phase , without too much trouble .
    At present I too am long ,long retired 93 years in a week or so and have helped a very good carpenter friend with his machine workshop and have moved across the road to an old coal yard with only single phase , so far we have only single phase machines running in there and the thicknesser is a small one which we need to upgrade.
    So reading again your easiest option is, try and buy a second hand 4 hp single phase motor with a starter , what about these brand new motors with aluminium castings , they seem to be cheap enough?????

    Thank you Colin ,that's a great help and we'll certainly round up a good electrician .
    Regards Des Jones
     
    desmo11225, Nov 9, 2018
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  4. desmo11225

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    Hi,

    You're most welcome Des. Unless you're going to be continuously running the thicknesser flat out one of the new aluminium motors should be fine; I've got a brand new 4 hp Aluminium motor on my home made table saw and it's got plenty of power.

    It's possible you'll need a 2 pole motor running at around 3,000 rpm but before spending money may I please suggest you research what was the original motor; a 4hp 3 phase motor will have the same power as a 4hp single phase motor; check the physical size though because the single phase will have capacitors; a capacitor start capacitor run motor will be fine the starting capacitor working like a turbo until the motor is up to speed then it should drop off line leaving the run capacitor connected.

    I'm assuming your thicknesser is belt driven via a pair of pulleys and V belt or even chain; If you can't find the motor details then be cheeky;

    https://www.gumtree.com/p/planers/multico-planer-thicknesser/1305966953

    Have a look for one for sale and ask if the seller can please help you out regarding motor details? I can only guess without actually seeing your thicknesser. Such work is easy for me and I confess I take it for granted; I'm used to upgrading machines; if the new motor is too big due to the capacitor getting in the way it's a simple enough job for a sparky to remotely connect capacitor/s; our Brook motors have detachable feet allowing the motor to be mounted in four different positions; hopefully the shaft size will be the same so watch for this if you have the original pulley? I could go on forever but at least I hope I've given you an insight and a few ideas to kick around.

    I'm nobutt a kid compared to you Des; I'm 71 and I hope I'm as active as you at your age; you must be steam powered having worked in the pit and steam power still takes a lot of beating; well done you and long may you continue in your endeavours you're an inspiration to us all.:)

    Kind regards, Colin.
     
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  5. desmo11225

    desmo11225

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    Thank You again Colin for all that info , My carpenter friend came round this evening ,he wants a circular saw and his chisels to be sharpened some thing I've done for them all for a long time and he tells me he's going to leave the thicknesser for a while, maybe next year but he knows now he can do it , Thank's to You.
    I did exactly 10 years on the colliery , starting at 14 years and one month, failing to get into the RAF because I'm under an Essential Works Order which came off on January the 1st 1950 when I came to Luton Bedfordshire to a motor works and they sent me to College to learn this New Fangled Welding that was very new and high tech then , Argon Arc Welding TIG and CO2 welding MIG , doing a 4 year course in 5 years ,I was married by then with 2 children , my daughter actually retiring this week end as a Vicar in Suffolk, staying 2 more years to do an HNC in metallurgy , and worked as a Welding Inspector. Ah Well there's a lot of years there . Thank's again Des Jones
     
    desmo11225, Nov 9, 2018
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  6. desmo11225

    Don Farrell

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    Okay, speaking as an electrician I just want to say your are moving into extremely dangerous areas here. Modify a product without the permission of the manufacturer is just sheer folly!!

    There are several advantages to using a 3 phase motor over single or even two phase. It really speaks to the safety of the motor within its design.

    A 3 phase motor operates much smoother than a single phase motor. Think about the physics of it. Single phase motors have to be able to contend with a constant switching waveform. This means that when the waveform is high (+) enough to generate the correct power voltage level, the motor is pushed at max voltage, however, that high waveform immediately starts to drop off towards the zero line. The voltage stays low until the lowest side of the waveform reaches its peak and again the motor is pushed. Effectively, the motor slows down, loses torque until the next high point is reached. Tough on the motor and much tougher on whatever the motor is driving. Here in the U.S.A. that loss of push is going to happen 60 times a second.

    Because a 3 phase motor use all 360 degrees of the cycle, you do not get the power loss between cycles.

    Because of the timing of the phases, when phase 1 is dropping from high to low, phase 2 is just reaching maximum high point. When phase 2 is starting to drop off, phase 3 is at its high point and so on. The inverse is true on the low side of the waveforms.

    The motor never loses its torque. I runs smoother and cooler and lasts a lot longer. By the way, it cost less to operate a 3phase induction motor then to stress a single phase motor.
     
    Don Farrell, Nov 10, 2018
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  7. desmo11225

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    Hi,

    You're welcome Des; I was taught arc and gas (oxy acetylene) welding in the pit as well as oxy/acetylene burning which was used a great deal for cutting thick steel plate and RSJ's etc. I've never used Mig or Tig welders; the big arc welders I was taught on were Oxford's and I've fancied an Oxford for many years but couldn't afford to buy one until recently and now have a very nice but extremely heavy 180A Oxford that can be run on both single and three phase; unlike many modern electric welders with short duty cycles the Oxford's can run full time without cutting out.

    Before marrying I too applied to join the RAF and attended a medical in Leeds then was sent to RAF Wittering staying overnight to take a Morse Code test which I passed. I was offered a choice of 11 posts within the RAF and I rejected them all; I wanted to get away from my family and every one of these posts were home based; fortunately I then met Bron and we've never been apart since. How times have changed though since you and I were kids; these days you can't sneeze without breaking some law or other.

    Many thanks for your information Don. I have made it quite clear that electrical work is highly dangerous and can kill without warning saying not to take chances but to get a sparky in; I'd never ever encourage a novice to play around with mains electricity.

    I'd like though to politely disagree with your comment regarding to modify a product without the manufacturer's permission being sheer folly; I think this comment results from modern day health and safety regulations which of course are here to protect every one of us. I've worked on and modified very heavy cast iron machines from the makers like Sagar; Wilson and Dominion etc; converting some of these from fast & loose pulley drive to V belt drive; how am I or others expected to obtain manufacturers permission regarding such machines when such manufacturers have been extinct for many years? It's not yet written in stone that to work on electrics you have to be an electrician; how many certificates of competence I wonder did the likes of Marconi; Baird and Hertz have hanging from their wall? I certainly do not wish to be in any way offensive but I've witnessed in our own home electrical work done by electricians that I as an untrained electrician regard as unsafe.

    I adopted vintage radio restoration as an hobby when I retired in 2000; I've never worked on these radios previously but by adopting safe working practices and researching when in doubt I've had over ten articles published on the subject and even fully restored a vintage TV as seen here;

    https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=62371

    https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=67298

    I was honoured by The British Vintage Wireless Society "BVWS" with top restoration award in 2009.

    Unfortunately these days new machines don't need painting because they are covered in safety warnings; are people now to be warned that if they poke a finger into a cutter of any kind whilst the cutter is under power they could be injured; it baffles me how some people manage to tie their shoe laces.

    Health and Safety has in my opinion done as much harm as its done good here in the UK; how many blind car drivers are there on our roads; "No road markings" is a good example?

    Sorry to go on but there are now so many rules and regulations here in the UK we are grinding to a halt; why not teach the old fashioned was as Des and I were taught to use common sense? Both Des and I have survived our time in a pit.

    I replied to Des in good faith explaining a number of options but strongly pointing out the dangers; perhaps under H&S rules I'd have been better keeping quiet and let people like Des find out the hard way?

    Kind regards, Colin.
     
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  8. desmo11225

    Don Farrell

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    Colin,

    Top of the day to you. I was using the term "Sheer folly" from a legal standpoint. Here in the U.S.A. there is a mentality that says if a piece of paper stops moving in front of you, bring it to a lawyer so he can sue somebody for you. Seriously, people have a tendency to modify stuff then sue the company when the product explodes in their face, so to speak.

    Just to introduce myself to you and Colin. I have never been unmarried. My lady and I have been married for going on 55 years now. We honestly got married because we had nothing better to do on that weekend. We were 18. We were also very blessed because we did not have a child until we were 22.

    Anyway, I was U.S. Navy for a little bit. I rode a DE, Destroyer Escort, in the North Atlantic looking for submarines. Till this day I can't think of a single sub commander in his right mind that would surface in that part of the world, in those waters. I have never been so cold and windblown in my life! God bless hot coffee!

    Any way, I worked for IBM for 25 years, first as a field technician then in the labs. I also worked for Lexmark (PC laser printers) in their technical support center. Since then I've edited college electrical textbooks and programming textbooks. I also teach electrical trade courses at the college level now.

    Like you I grew up in the age of "Use your brain, that's why God gave it to you." era. Before the government decided they knew more then us poor ignorant tax payers. We have "OSHA" over here to drive us nuts. Then, of course we have the Electrical Code, which is pretty decent. Next comes state, county, city, local and finally the "AHJ" (Authority Having Jurisdiction). By the time you get through with all the "Officials" you generally forget what you were trying to build.

    Cheers, Don
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
    Don Farrell, Nov 10, 2018
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  9. desmo11225

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    Hi,

    Thanks Don.:)

    I think our immediate neighbour must be American; she winds people up the wrong way then says she'll take legal action if not agreed with; about 18 months ago after yet more harassment from this neighbour it was me who called in the police and stopped her dead; she was warned in no uncertain terms that the police do not get involved in neighbour disputes but what she was doing by harassing Bron and I was an offence and if she persisted she would be arrested. Bron and I are very quiet but this neighbour pestered us for 30 years about our trees and hedges blocking light from her bedroom and kitchen windows; I've felled at least 5 big trees two at 80' tall plus completely removed our 80' long conifer hedge; upon seeing the hedge had been removed she immediately tried to start an argument with Bron saying "it's too open". A short while later she was complaining saying its disgusting your holly tree is dropping berries onto our wheelie bins; I felled and disposed of the big mature holly only for her to come down to my workshop saying I had damaged her wall; when I politely asked her to go away and please leave me alone she refused to do so; I then informed her she was now trespassing; and to get away from her I fled into the workshop now she started banging on the workshop door shouting at me; this was the last straw so I called in the police; We've tried our best to get along but have realized such people are better defined as enemies. I couldn't believe it after involving the police she got her nasty husband to tackle me about overhanging branches from our willow tree saying it was my duty to remove and dispose of them at my cost; I refused saying no its not my duty please have a look at the law; it's only a couple of weeks ago she got her son to remove a couple of the branches and they've burned them; this husband and wife pair are always declaring WW3 between themselves with terrible arguments; I'm not at all violent but I strongly believe I should have felled both these instead of the trees and hedges?

    You've had some interesting jobs Don; thanks for sharing the information; perhaps you having worked at a printer manufacturer can explain why printer manufacturers sell their printers so cheaply then rip off customer who would like to use OEM cartridges? This isn't specifically aimed at Lexmark because from what I see all printer companies do this?

    Congratulations Don on your 55 years of marriage; Bron and I have been married 42 years so we've some catching up to do; it was the best days work of my life marrying Bron and I love her to bits. Bron had been suffering severe family problems due to ill health and over the years it had depressive impact upon her; I too at the time was suffering no end of problems including a fractured ankle and shattered knee cap when an idiot car driver with iced up windows hit me head on whilst I was riding my Norton Atlas 750cc motorcycle; I was about as low as any guy could get; anyway Bron and I met at "The Industrial Rehabilitation Unit" in Leeds and we've never been apart since;' we got off to a wonderful start to our marriage; my family did their utmost to split us up refusing to attend our wedding then afterwards still provoking Bron at every opportunity. We're still together in spite of the lot of them and we've done nicely thank you without any outside help. What makes people so nasty and they seem to be getting worse?

    You'll now be of an age Don to see the changes regarding so many restrictions on what we now do or more correctly what we can't do; still we have laws over here where an underaged victim who has been murdered has all their personal details broadcast but yet the under age criminal has their identity hidden? What a sad world we live in now.

    I've never been abroad Don or even been on a plane; these days if I want to go abroad I drive a few miles and I can see all the foreigners who have taken over whole areas; we're content to remain home enjoying our respective hobbies.

    Over here in the UK Don we also suffer no end of government interference to the point the only growth industry is fast food outlets and supermarkets; there's absolutely no incentive to work and improve ourselves because if we were successful the government would want from us to give to layabouts too bone idle to work; I fully retired 18 years ago aged 53 walking down the works yard for the last time before I was carried down because I was in charge of three departments under a great deal of stress and there were strong rumours I was to be given a fourth department?

    Doe's your government now call you "A burden upon society" Don because you're retired; our government does and I find it highly offensive.

    I've rambled on enough but I do fully agree with you Don when it comes to safety; if in doubt get a professional in and never take risks which could injure.

    Kind regards, Colin.
     
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  10. desmo11225

    Don Farrell

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    Colin,

    Well it seems that U.K. is just as burdened with idiots as we are here in the U.S.A. Unfortunatley, of late, it seems that our idiots are taking to using weapons instead of mouths to settle issues.

    This forum is not the correct place to carry on chit-chat sessions. Do you have a way for us to exchange e-mails, at least as long as neither of us are nutty. Don
     
    Don Farrell, Nov 10, 2018
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  11. desmo11225

    Don Farrell

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    "You've had some interesting jobs Don; thanks for sharing the information; perhaps you having worked at a printer manufacturer can explain why printer manufacturers sell their printers so cheaply then rip off customer who would like to use OEM cartridges? This isn't specifically aimed at Lexmark because from what I see all printer companies do this?"

    This is an exact issue of screwing around with a manufacturer's product. I have been involved at a fairly high level in one case.

    Here is how it goes. Any company starts a product development cycle by assessing the marketplace (manhours). If they decide to go ahead and try to build a product to fit into a spot they see, on come product development.

    Manhours by the thousands (sometimes). In the case of the spray and pray printers (ink printers), you of course have the model makers - mold makers, electrical engineers, software engineers, package engineers, writer's for the publications, the printing for the publications, sales and marketing, warranty preparations, support preparations, parts planning, chemical engineering (ink creators). Multiply this by bunches if the product is going to be an international product.

    Now the fun starts, you get all these disciplines in a room and you discover that none of them speak the same language with respect to what they do. Eventually everything gets sorted out and the beta cycle testing begins. This can take up several iterations of test product. Next comes the Gold level of product iterations. Usually only one or two swags at it. Some where between beta and gold cycles these products and pubs start working their way to in-house testing groups and sometimes into the hands of actual customers for re-announce testing.

    Finally the big moment in time, the product gets announced, but it's selling price is say roughly $100.

    Corporate wide you have spent millions in product development and research. The price point of the product alone is never going to be recoverable on sales alone. So basically you look at other ways to improve you recover rate on the way to compatibility. Ink, cost a bunch to develop and match to the print delivery system. Hence the relatively high price for replenishment pods of ink. They also a huge consumerable. Let's face it, you want a spot on the page, you need the ink to be that spot.

    Now along comes company XYZ and they develop an ink that they think will work on your printer. However, it is not the exact chemical match for the printer and while the first few pods are okay, eventually there are problems in the delivery system of the printer. Most notable, printheads fail in high numbers. Now customers are coming back on your company to pay for the replacement of the printheads. Eventually litigation starts up and you have to have your lawyers (more cost) protect your product. Your logic is, it is not my fault that you, Mr. Customer decided to use an ink cartridge that is not a match to our product. Therefore, it is not us that is at fault, talk to the manufacturer of the uncertified product that you chose to use. Don't get me seriously started on this topic.
     
    Don Farrell, Nov 10, 2018
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  12. desmo11225

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    Hi,

    Good suggestion Don; I've just sent you my contact details.

    I worked in a huge company and understand the chaos involved. I was sent on a weeks intensive "Kaizen" training course and it was an eye opener; there must have been twenty of us in the room and we set up a simulated production line this being very basic; The stores had the supplies consisting of things like coloured paper clips and coloured stars etc; tiny plastic cups were also involved it all looked rather childish. Each section had to add an item to the plastic cup as the cup was passed around the tables in similar manner to adding components on an assembly line; in minutes the lot ground to a halt with everyone falling over each other; the next trial involved just three people and these three got to grips and got production flowing.

    When I returned to my departments I started to implement what I had been taught; the next guy up the pecking order pulled me into his office and said "Kaizen isn't applicable to your departments and if you persist I'll be having words with you" I ripped up my Kaizen certificate and gave away my brand new Kaizen polo shirt; this was the last straw after 24 years of loyalty to the company; I demanded voluntary redundancy and having been granted this I left the company with a decent redundancy payment but also my works final salary pension; the guy above me who told me Kaizen didn't apply in my departments didn't last long after I left; I bet he had nightmares when all the stress I had been suffering landed on him.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

    I've attended many training courses and seminars over the years but strange isn't it that I now use Kaizen in my workshop taking projects right back to basics and it works?

    One thing that really did stand out was a comment from a shop floor worker in a high profile meeting; the company "was a rosy apple with a rotten core". This I thought summed everything up in a sentence.

    My only problem now is getting time to wander into the workshop without interruptions?

    It's surprising many times where a thread ends up; I do try to avoid politics and religion though having absolutely no interest in either of them.

    Kind regards, Colin.
     
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