Combustion Concern

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I changed my gas valve in the home's Lennox furnace about 12 years ago. The furnace is a 100,000btu, fan forced, direct/atmospheric venting (no draft motor), natural gas.....house is 3400ft above sea. It worked fine, I didn't have to adjust the IN/OUT pressures...worked straight from the box. Nat gas pipe doap and soap test = good. Observe burners = visible steady blue flame. All is good.

However, I just changed the gas valve in our shop. Reznor, unit heater, direct/atmospheric venting, 75,000btu, natural gas. It too is working fine. However, when I observe the flame, while there is some blue, their is a little more orange flames. This might be nothing to worry about....maybe I'm overthinking it.

Herein is the reason I have posted a question. Anyone have any opinions on combustion? How to know if enough (or too much) oxygen is introduced to the burners?
 
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My opinion is that combustion has to be good, or you (& others) can die.

Yellow/orange flames are a sign of not good.

Get it checked by a pro, or at the very least get a good CO alarm.
 
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Thanks. "He who knows".

My brother actually responded too, and he's a refrigeration mechanic. He said the yellow tops (of the blue flame) is likely due to the dust in the shop. And he's right.........our shop is dusty. So it might make sense.

He also said I didn't require any elevation correction with the gas valve.....so it appears to be good.

Per your recommendation, I am going to put a CO alarm in there, but it's going to need a manual OFF switch as we operate gas equipment (hydraulic scissor lifts, gas driven welders, gas driven winches, etc...) without putting the CO detector into alarm.

Thanks
 
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Surely none of those items give off CO? It's a lethal gas. When you say "gas driven", if you mean gasoline then I would have thought you'd want the alarm to warn you if they were leaking CO exhaust fumes into the space....
 
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They are gas, as in gasoline. Yes, they naturally will produce CO exhaust. But we only run them for testing intermittently. The human body can take some CO for a short while....it's a shop....these things happen in shops. All mechanical machinery equipment shop have repairs going on where occasional starting is needed. You just simply turn on the exhaust fan and suck it out....but in any case, any CO alarm is going to be "ringing" all the time when we're testing. We'd have to be able to temporarily turn the alarm off.
 
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If you are safely venting the space then the alarm will not trigger. If you are not, then maybe you should know about it.

What are the safe limits prescribed by the OSHA, vs the sensitivity of alarms?

For example the UK standard for domestic detectors requires them to activate after about 3 minutes exposure to 300 ppm CO, or 10 to 40 minutes at 100 ppm, or 60 to 90 minutes at 50 ppm.

What are your legal obligations regarding maintaining a safe working environment? I don't want to fall out, but I'm afraid that any position on workplace safety which begins "these things happen" is unacceptable.
 
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Thanks "He who knows". I can check that out specs that OSHA states. Frankly, I don't operate the shop like I should as I'm the only person performing repairs and "heavier" type work in there. I don't really consider myself as someone with regards safety standards. My bad.
 
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I don't know if your Reznor is an 'open flued' appliance which gets it's combustion air from within the room in which it's installed, or whether it's a 'room sealed' appliance (known in the UK as 'balanced flue') which draws it's combustion air from the flue 'terminal' outside the building, from which the products of combustion ('exhaust fumes') are emitted.

Yellow flames are an indication of incomplete combustion usually caused by insufficient air being drawn into the burner.

Gas appliance burners are basically 'Bunsen' burners, which have a venturi into which 'primary' air is drawn by the stream of gas entering the burner. The air mixes with the gas and 'secondary' air around the flame also aids complete combustion. In an 'open flued' gas appliance burner which draws air from within the room , if any debris such as fluff from clothes, hair from pets, or in your case, dust, enters the burner, the inside of the burner head becomes partially blocked and insufficient air is drawn into the venturi. Thus the air:gas ratio at the burner is insufficiently mixed to enable complete combustion. For this reason, new installations of 'open flued' gas appliances haven't been made or installed in the UK for maybe thirty years, but existing ones are permitted to remain.

Natural gas (methane) is CH4. The carbon atom needs two atoms of oxygen so that when it burns, is creates C02 - Carbon Dioxide, which isn't poisonous. If it only receives one atom of oxygen ('O'), it become CO, which is poisonous. Only a very small amount in the atmosphere is deadly, because when humans inhale air, our bodies much more readily accept carbon monoxide than the oxygen in air. (The hydrogen in the CH4 molecule combines with oxygen to form H2O, which is basically, water vapour). So, in a correctly working gas appliance, the 'fumes' emitted from the burner consist of carbon dioxide and water vapour, which is the same as our breath when we exhale.

The bottom line is: get the burner checked out. A gas engineer who has a flue gas analyser will be able to check in minutes if the problem is indeed incomplete combustion resulting in carbon monoxide, and if so, will not doubt take a close look at the burner.

I hope the chemistry lesson isn't too boring. I spent my 40-year career in the gas industry and in the late 1960s was involved in the design of gas appliance burners to convert gas appliances designed for use on coal gas, to be able to be used on natural gas.

Later in my career (late 1970s'80s), I had to attend fatalities where it was suspected that someone had died from carbon monoxide poisoning, and to attend inquests where that was so. I got to know the Coroner's Officer well enough to receive a Christmas Card from him. A lifetime away, thankfully. As often as not, such sad events were in dilapidated rented properties where landlords failed to have appliances checked and serviced. When one was convicted of manslaughter and jailed, new regulations came into force and all landlords must have gas safety checks carried out and certified annually.

Hope that's of help and interest.

David.
 

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