X13 type vs. variable speed ECM


T

Tony Hwang

Hi,
Is there significant difference in reliability between two types?
 
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S

Steve

Tony Hwang said:
Hi,
Is there significant difference in reliability between two types?
the short answer is no.

I have not had to replace any ECM motors (yet), but have had to replace a
half dozen X13 motors. The X13 motors all seem to have to failed due to low
voltage(70 - 80v) caused by failed breakers.

However... you have to keep your static pressure within acceptable
perameters, and both motors have a nasty tendency to put off a lot of
RFI/EMI. If the client is a HAM radio operator, CBer, or they have sensitive
audio equipment, this may be a big problem. If it is, contact your supplier
and manufacturer tech reps... they will deal with it on a case by case
basis. Yes it will have to go through the manufacturers engineers for the
fix.

Rheem/RUUD has an optional surge protecter available for the X13 motors...
this is not a bad thing.

My personal prefrence is the ECM motors
 
T

Tony Hwang

Steve said:
the short answer is no.

I have not had to replace any ECM motors (yet), but have had to replace a
half dozen X13 motors. The X13 motors all seem to have to failed due to low
voltage(70 - 80v) caused by failed breakers.

However... you have to keep your static pressure within acceptable
perameters, and both motors have a nasty tendency to put off a lot of
RFI/EMI. If the client is a HAM radio operator, CBer, or they have sensitive
audio equipment, this may be a big problem. If it is, contact your supplier
and manufacturer tech reps... they will deal with it on a case by case
basis. Yes it will have to go through the manufacturers engineers for the
fix.

Rheem/RUUD has an optional surge protecter available for the X13 motors...
this is not a bad thing.

My personal prefrence is the ECM motors
Hi,
Thanks for the heads up. I happen to be a HAM over half a century,
VE6CGX. I have RF sniffer, spectrum analyzer,etc. something to do around
this ECMs when they are running. I thought VS control logic could be
troublesome but does not look like it according to your observation.
I had Carrier performance series new edition 2 stage furnace installed,
this morning inspector came out and gave a thumbs u(passed inspection
w/o any issues)

Too many RF stuffs around house, my radios and antenna, weather
station(415MHz), Wireless thermostat(915MHz), Garage door opener(413MHz)
Cordless phone(5.4GHz), Dual band WiFi router,etc. Microwave oven, Cell
phones, Yuck! Not a good thing.....
 
S

Steve

Tony Hwang said:
Hi,
Thanks for the heads up. I happen to be a HAM over half a century, VE6CGX.
I have RF sniffer, spectrum analyzer,etc. something to do around this ECMs
when they are running. I thought VS control logic could be troublesome but
does not look like it according to your observation.
I had Carrier performance series new edition 2 stage furnace installed,
this morning inspector came out and gave a thumbs u(passed inspection w/o
any issues)

Too many RF stuffs around house, my radios and antenna, weather
station(415MHz), Wireless thermostat(915MHz), Garage door opener(413MHz)
Cordless phone(5.4GHz), Dual band WiFi router,etc. Microwave oven, Cell
phones, Yuck! Not a good thing.....
THe problem isn't with the logic, its with the electronicaly commutated
motors, and the switching power supplies that are built into them.
One of my customers is also a HAM.... his system has an X13 blower motor...
he also runs a FLEX radio... he was seeing spikes every 18khz across the
spectrum with it being the worst between 10 and 30+ mhz.

I have serious noise with the ECM blower motor in my gas furnace... I have
managed to reduce the noise leves from S8 down to S4... better, but still
not acceptable.

I did an X13 motor replacement for anothe customer 2 weeks ago... when I got
into the truck, I was getting almost an S10 noise level on 20meters.

The tech reps are supposed to be sending me 2 "kits" to fix the problem with
my gas furnace , and my customers air handler. That was 2 weeks ago... They
were also supposed to send me an email or 2 about the problems and
installation instructions for the kits. Welll.... as you can imagine, the
parts are on the truck.....
 
G

gregz

Tony Hwang said:
Hi,
Thanks for the heads up. I happen to be a HAM over half a century,
VE6CGX. I have RF sniffer, spectrum analyzer,etc. something to do around
this ECMs when they are running. I thought VS control logic could be
troublesome but does not look like it according to your observation.
I had Carrier performance series new edition 2 stage furnace installed,
this morning inspector came out and gave a thumbs u(passed inspection w/o any issues)

Too many RF stuffs around house, my radios and antenna, weather
station(415MHz), Wireless thermostat(915MHz), Garage door opener(413MHz)
Cordless phone(5.4GHz), Dual band WiFi router,etc. Microwave oven, Cell
phones, Yuck! Not a good thing.....
I did some mild rf elimination. I think I have to try a ground rod near the
furnace, and maybe the compressor box. I installed a bunch of led
controllers I have to work on suppressing their ins and outs. Dam close to
half a century, K3WNW, N6GS/3

Greg
 
T

Tony Hwang

gregz said:
I did some mild rf elimination. I think I have to try a ground rod near the
furnace, and maybe the compressor box. I installed a bunch of led
controllers I have to work on suppressing their ins and outs. Dam close to
half a century, K3WNW, N6GS/3

Greg
Hmmm!
Even noise blanker is not very effetive on thi kind of noise.
 
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S

Steve

Tony Hwang said:
Hmmm!
Even noise blanker is not very effetive on thi kind of noise.
The noise blankers on the TS480 are really good, and no.... they don't work
worth a crap with this noise. N6OJN
 
G

gregz

gregz said:
I did some mild rf elimination. I think I have to try a ground rod near the
furnace, and maybe the compressor box. I installed a bunch of led
controllers I have to work on suppressing their ins and outs. Dam close to
half a century, K3WNW, N6GS/3

Greg
Put this on home repair group

Back in HVAC discussing noisy variable speed fans. Looking at CB and
amateur 10/11 meter bands. I have to turn ac off to get good noise levels.
Turned cb on yesterday. New noise. Sssss pow. Sssss pow. Constant interval
, S3 level. Take portable cb around house. Strange places where it showed
up, with no sensible answers. Go outside, getting stronger near poles. Walk
up street, getting stronger. Top of hill, 300 feet from house, signal
stronger.
Go back to house, thinking I still have problem in house. Start shutting
off breakers. Got it. Goes to kitchen/ dinning area. Start pulling plugs.
Look on breaker chart. One more near laptop area. Look down at sears
lithium battery charger, no battery inserted. Pull plug. No noise. Question
is, I'll have to go back up the street and check. Neighbors may also have
similar devices.

Greg
 
S

Steve

The noise blankers on the TS480 are really good, and no.... they don't
work worth a crap with this noise. N6OJN
Got the RFI kits from the engineer at the motor manufacturer... the one for
the X13 motor completely took out the noise on that one. The kit for the ECM
motor on mine reduced the noise to S3.... but its still a problem. It seems
that the proximity of the antenna to the furnace (only 20' separation) is
causing additional issues. The engineer is sending me some prototype stuff
to try out on my furnace.
 
R

Rudy

jsteve_n wrote:

the short answer is no.
I have not had to replace any ECM motors (yet), but have had to replace a
half dozen X13 motors. The X13 motors all seem to have to failed due to low
voltage(70 - 80v) caused by failed breakers.
However... you have to keep your static pressure within acceptable
perameters, and both motors have a nasty tendency to put off a lot of
RFI/EMI. If the client is a HAM radio operator, CBer, or they have sensitive
audio equipment, this may be a big problem. If it is, contact your supplier
and manufacturer tech reps... they will deal with it on a case by case
basis. Yes it will have to go through the manufacturers engineers for the
fix.
Rheem/RUUD has an optional surge protecter available for the X13 motors...
this is not a bad thing.
My personal prefrence is the ECM motors

I am a ham radio operator and recently had a Ruud furnace/AC installed. It
has a variable speed motor which generates a strong 18 khz signal with
many harmonics every 18khz especially between 18 and 30 Mhz. It is so
strong that I have to turn off the heat or AC to operate. To make matters
worse my neighbor has the identical unit and even though it is 100 feet
away it still generates the same strong signal. Even I fix mine I can't
fix my neighbors. Where is the FCC when they are needed?
 
G

gregz

Rudy said:
I am a ham radio operator and recently had a Ruud furnace/AC installed. It
has a variable speed motor which generates a strong 18 khz signal with
many harmonics every 18khz especially between 18 and 30 Mhz. It is so
strong that I have to turn off the heat or AC to operate. To make matters
worse my neighbor has the identical unit and even though it is 100 feet
away it still generates the same strong signal. Even I fix mine I can't
fix my neighbors. Where is the FCC when they are needed?

Last summer I looked at mine. I attached chokes to the thermostat, and some
on the ac near furnace. Helped some. I was thinking of attaching a ground
rod to the metalwork near fan.

Greg
 
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T

Tony Hwang

Rudy said:
I am a ham radio operator and recently had a Ruud furnace/AC installed. It
has a variable speed motor which generates a strong 18 khz signal with
many harmonics every 18khz especially between 18 and 30 Mhz. It is so
strong that I have to turn off the heat or AC to operate. To make matters
worse my neighbor has the identical unit and even though it is 100 feet
away it still generates the same strong signal. Even I fix mine I can't
fix my neighbors. Where is the FCC when they are needed?
Hi,
I believe manufacturer has RFI kit to deal with the problem. I remember
reading about it in the manual. Time to stock up ferrite cores? I am a HAM
also since '50s.
 
J

jamesgangnc

Hi,

I believe manufacturer has RFI kit to deal with the problem. I remember

reading about it in the manual. Time to stock up ferrite cores? I am a HAM

also since '50s.
My guess is the fcc doesn't care so much anymore. So much of what we use over the air is digital now and is more immune to noise.
 
T

Tony Hwang

My guess is the fcc doesn't care so much anymore. So much of what we use over the air is digital now and is more immune to noise.
Hi,
Same up here. Industry Canada let go of regulating HAM radio. They gave
us life time license w/o renewal fee telling us you are on your own.
 
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N

No Body

Hi,
I believe manufacturer has RFI kit to deal with the problem. I remember
reading about it in the manual. Time to stock up ferrite cores? I am a HAM
also since '50s.
It is the manufacturers responsibility to produce a product compliant
with the EMI/RFI rules.. I'd contact them.. Let them know that you
need it to be fixed..

You might want to get the ARRL involved.. Mr. Ed Hare is their
RFI wizzard.

It's probably not the first time Ruud has heard about this.. and
if the ARRL gets the FCC involved... Ruud will wonder what
fell on them! :)
 

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