Wind Turbines


G

Graham Brooker

Does anyone have any real experience of a wind turbine at home. Do you get
any real savings on your electricity. The B&Q one looks rather expensive as
it is not sold for DIY fit. Are you selling electricity back to the
supplier (mine is Powergen) or does it just top and reduce your own domestic
use. Is there a realistic domestic non-means tested grant towards the
installation. Is there a DIY alternative that is available.

Any comments appreciated

Graham Brooker
 
Q

Quercus-Robur

Graham Brooker said:
Does anyone have any real experience of a wind turbine at home. Do you get
any real savings on your electricity. The B&Q one looks rather expensive as
it is not sold for DIY fit. Are you selling electricity back to the
supplier (mine is Powergen) or does it just top and reduce your own domestic
use. Is there a realistic domestic non-means tested grant towards the
installation. Is there a DIY alternative that is available.

Any comments appreciated

Graham Brooker
from what I have read there's a minimum 10-yr payback period for these
things; the 'green' credentials are what motivates people to buy them.
personally I'm waiting until the price comes down a lot - possibly with govt
subsidy if they are serious about encouraging energy from sustainable / free
sources.
 
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E

EricP

Does anyone have any real experience of a wind turbine at home. Do you get
any real savings on your electricity. The B&Q one looks rather expensive as
it is not sold for DIY fit. Are you selling electricity back to the
supplier (mine is Powergen) or does it just top and reduce your own domestic
use. Is there a realistic domestic non-means tested grant towards the
installation. Is there a DIY alternative that is available.

Any comments appreciated

Graham Brooker
Total waste of time and effort.

This may be of use to you.

http://www.timhunkin.com/a125_arch-windpower.htm
 
G

Gio

Quercus-Robur said:
from what I have read there's a minimum 10-yr payback period for these
things; the 'green' credentials are what motivates people to buy them.
personally I'm waiting until the price comes down a lot - possibly with
govt
subsidy if they are serious about encouraging energy from sustainable /
free
sources.
We were looking at wind power last year and considered the B+Q machine,
although at the time it was only sold by its manufacturer
http://www.windsave.com/
Remember it is only rated at 1kw max under ideal constant wind (not gusts)
of 12 m/sec. We live by the sea with no buildings between the sea / beach
and our home yet we only average 4.5 m/s so it would not even power a 1 bar
electric fire.
see http://www.bwea.com/noabl/index.html for your areas wind speed then do
the sums. If considering selling back your electricity consider the 3
p/unit max payment and off set the switchgear/ extra meter etc.
We could not make it pay even with 30% grant and no maintenance costs for
its expected life.
If someone can prove me wrong it might rekindle the interest.
 
D

Dwayne & Angela

EricP said:
Total waste of time and effort.

This may be of use to you.

http://www.timhunkin.com/a125_arch-windpower.htm
one interesting comment on that page

<quote>Making the arch makes me think that if people are serious about
switching to renewable energy, almost all electrical products will have to
be redesigned from scratch.</quote>

This reminded me of a friend who's tv went on the blink he figured out it
was the main transformer which lowered the 240vac to 12vdc so he just used
his cb radio power supply to power the tv. Now I know that not all
electronic devices are run from 12vdc after the transformers but the ones
that do could easily add an extra power connecter to allow it to be run from
a 12vdc supply, this I think would make the greener options more viable.
 
E

EricP

one interesting comment on that page

<quote>Making the arch makes me think that if people are serious about
switching to renewable energy, almost all electrical products will have to
be redesigned from scratch.</quote>

This reminded me of a friend who's tv went on the blink he figured out it
was the main transformer which lowered the 240vac to 12vdc so he just used
his cb radio power supply to power the tv. Now I know that not all
electronic devices are run from 12vdc after the transformers but the ones
that do could easily add an extra power connecter to allow it to be run from
a 12vdc supply, this I think would make the greener options more viable.
And putting a car alternator/generator with a propellor on a pole at
almost no cost, *should* be cost effective, and within the scope of
any DIYer.
 
M

malc

Graham said:
Does anyone have any real experience of a wind turbine at home. Do
you get any real savings on your electricity. The B&Q one looks
rather expensive as it is not sold for DIY fit.
Actually I thought the B&Q one wasn't a bad price as it comes with
installation for £1500. Although I agree you can get turbines for £500 but
then you've got these blessed Part P regs which would probably stop you
wiring it into the lighting ring (Coff coff, it's always been there guv,
honest). And then we get onto the quality of B&Q electricians who didn't do
an exemplary job on my neighbours house. I had to go round at least 5 times
to get their electricity working.


--
Malc

"AFB Mr Tracey."
"Underbirths are og"

Les Barker - Irrational Neutscene
 
D

Dwayne & Angela

one interesting comment on that page
And putting a car alternator/generator with a propellor on a pole at
almost no cost, *should* be cost effective, and within the scope of
any DIYer.
This could work with some regulating you could even use something like this
to charge a heavy duty battery which would in turn run things like stereo,
pc and a number of other electronic devices. you would of course need some
kind of charging from the mains in the event that you didnt get enough wind
to keep the battery topped up.
Taking it a step further a wind powered alternater running a motor for a
ground loop heating system, free heating and hot water, the fuel industry
would hate it LOL. If anyone on this newsgroup works out a system I would
expect a free setup ;0).
 
C

Codswallop

the_constructor said:
I was discussing this with a friend the other day and he informed me that
you would have to have planning permission to use one of these things.
Whether it's true or not I don't know, if it is, then it's not worth the
bother
True, at the moment planning permission is required:
http://www.planningni.gov.uk/Devel_Control/Planning_System/Permission/wind_turbines.htm
Starts at £200, which is no problem for David Cameron MP.

How long would it take to recoup £200?
 
C

Codswallop

Graham Brooker said:
Does anyone have any real experience of a wind turbine at home. Do you get
any real savings on your electricity. The B&Q one looks rather expensive
as it is not sold for DIY fit. Are you selling electricity back to the
supplier (mine is Powergen) or does it just top and reduce your own
domestic use. Is there a realistic domestic non-means tested grant
towards the installation. Is there a DIY alternative that is available.

Any comments appreciated

Graham Brooker
As far as I can tell, you don't save anything. The estimated time taken to
recoup the installation costs is between 8 and 11 years. But the lifespan of
these windmills is about ten years, less in coastal areas due to salt
corrosion. So it would just about have paid for itself and then need to be
replaced, effectively cancelling out any savings. Only certain properties
are suitable. The B & Q Windsave is mounted on a 6ft pole which needs to be
attached to the gable end of the property so that the blades are at least
30ft high. The blades also need to be out of the wind shadow of any tall
buildings. The Windsave stars to generate electricity at 9mph, but the
average wind speed across the UK is 12.5mph at 33ft above the ground. So
apart from on very windy days the amount of electricity generated will be
limited, and none at all when the wind sped falls below 9mph.When the wind
speed is 28mph the Windsave will generate 1 kilowatt of power, enough to run
a TV, DVD player, computer, fridge freezer and several lights. B & Q expects
to sell between 20,000 and 50,000 a year and believes they will be a common
feature of the skyline within 5 years. It reminds me of Sir Clive Sinclair's
C5.
 
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A

Adrian Chapman

B & Q expects
to sell between 20,000 and 50,000 a year and believes they will be a common
feature of the skyline within 5 years. It reminds me of Sir Clive Sinclair's
C5.
The one aspect of all this that hasn't been really considered is the
environmental impact of manufacture, transport, installation and
ultimately disposal, all these things require energy. My feeling about
this turbine is that it is highly unlikely to pay for itself in energy
savings for the consumer and may well, if all the other aspects are
included, ultimately do more harm to the environment than good. I
admit I don't have any figures for this, it is just my gut feeling and
I am ready to be persuaded otherwise.
 
C

Codswallop

Adrian Chapman said:
The one aspect of all this that hasn't been really considered is the
environmental impact of manufacture, transport, installation and
ultimately disposal, all these things require energy. My feeling about
this turbine is that it is highly unlikely to pay for itself in energy
savings for the consumer and may well, if all the other aspects are
included, ultimately do more harm to the environment than good. I
admit I don't have any figures for this, it is just my gut feeling and
I am ready to be persuaded otherwise.
I really do wonder about domestic rubbish recycling. I needed a respirator
the other day when the chap in front of me at the bottle bank set off in his
diesel Range Rover, pumping black smoke from the exhaust, after he put a few
newspapers and bottles in the bins. In my area we used to have a once weekly
collection of our domestic rubbish. Then the council introduced boxes for
recycling paper, cans and bottles, but that needs a separate lorry to
collect these. Then the council introduced bags for garden waste, but that
needs a separate lorry to collect these. My understanding is that 3 massive
diesel-engined lorries are 3 times more
environmentally damaging than one. They certainly make 3 times more noise.
The logic of this escapes me. Is there really any net gain with recycling?
Is anyone measuring all the extra petrol, diesel and other non-renewable
resources being used?
 
I

Innovate808

Graham said:
Does anyone have any real experience of a wind turbine at home. Do you get
any real savings on your electricity. The B&Q one looks rather expensive as
it is not sold for DIY fit. Are you selling electricity back to the
supplier (mine is Powergen) or does it just top and reduce your own domestic
use. Is there a realistic domestic non-means tested grant towards the
installation. Is there a DIY alternative that is available.

Any comments appreciated

Graham Brooker
Yes, I have a 1KW grid-tied, tower mounted domestic wind turbine at
home. It produces at best 6kWh of power on a good windy day, and 0 on a
bad one. The average power produced on my site is 1.67kWh per day,
based on a 12 month window since last October. There's no substitute
for mounting a domestic turbine on a tower, away from any buildings and
trees, on a tower at least 10m tall. Mounting on your house is scary,
since the "humming" noise would drive you nuts!!1 and you're shi**ing
yourself when it's blowing a howler at night, just in case you end up
wearing your turbine in bed.

There's a lot of sense being discussed on these groups, and hopefully
not too many people will fall for the building-mounted solution before
the truth about their poor performance comes to light. Anyone wanting
to know the hard facts about what it's really like to live with a 1KW
wind turbine in your garden, please ask...
 
G

Gio

Innovate808 said:
Yes, I have a 1KW grid-tied, tower mounted domestic wind turbine at
home. It produces at best 6kWh of power on a good windy day, and 0 on a
bad one. The average power produced on my site is 1.67kWh per day,
based on a 12 month window since last October.
Just curious how a 1KW turbine produces more power than its rated hourly
performance. From what I have read in manufacturers data sheets they tend
to state the maximum produced with ideal non gusting wind and before
regulation cuts in through feathering or braking etc.

Gio
 
T

tinnews

Gio said:
Just curious how a 1KW turbine produces more power than its rated hourly
performance. From what I have read in manufacturers data sheets they tend
to state the maximum produced with ideal non gusting wind and before
regulation cuts in through feathering or braking etc.
It produces power of up to 1kw. If run continuously for 24 hours at
1kw it would produce 24kwh of energy. Since the best was 6kwh in a
day then it's only managing 25% of it's ideal maximum output even on a
windy day.
 
T

tinnews

It produces power of up to 1kw. If run continuously for 24 hours at
1kw it would produce 24kwh of energy. Since the best was 6kwh in a
day then it's only managing 25% of it's ideal maximum output even on a
Oops, remove that apostrophe! :)
 
W

wind nut

Palindr☻me said:
It doesn't. His average is 1.67/24. At best 6/24 - equivalent to a
0.25kW average output..
My household consumption is 8kWh per day, so I'm saving 1.67kWh of that
per day on average over the year. This translates to a saving of 20% on
my bill, on my site, with my wind conditions. The results would be
better in some more exposed sites, and considerably worse in others.
The reality of wind power is that the wind doesn't blow for a whole day
at the same speed, and so the peak output of the turbine shoots up and
down like crazy, with only the larger wind turbines having enough
inertia to smooth out most of these fluctuations in the wind gusts.

Despite what everyone seems to think, the UK's wind resources are not
ideal for wind turbines. You really do need a good smooth laminar
airfolw to make the most of wind power, and we simply don't get that
here. Gusty winds play havoc with small turbines especially, where they
will flip round on the tower with irregular gusts, which can be quite
frightening in really high winds. If anyone posts wind turbine views on
these groups, and bases their ideas on what they think they know about
turbines, then this isn't realy all that useful to those who want to
hear from those who live with wind power on a dailly basis. I've got
really quite used to using wind turbines now, and would not hesitate to
advise others, on good exposed sites only, to use it. For urban and
other buit-up areas, spend your money on solar water heaters, or
something else, since wind power won't do you any favours.
 
H

Handy

:
My household consumption is 8kWh per day, so I'm saving 1.67kWh of that
per day on average over the year. This translates to a saving of 20% on
my bill, on my site, with my wind conditions.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Does that take into account capital cost and replacement? My understanding
of the B & Q Windsave is that it takes about 10 years to recover the initial
cost but the lifespan of the unit is said to be 10 years. If that is true,
then the savings are nil.
 
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G

Gio

It produces power of up to 1kw. If run continuously for 24 hours at
1kw it would produce 24kwh of energy. Since the best was 6kwh in a
day then it's only managing 25% of it's ideal maximum output even on a
windy day.
Thanks Sue and Chris for the explanation. I have a better grasp of the
ratio now.

Gio
 

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