TSP - yes or no ???


E

Ether Jones

Why do some paint manufacturers recommend washing wood with TSP, and
others explicitly say DO NOT use TSP?
 
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T

Tom The Great

Why do some paint manufacturers recommend washing wood with TSP, and
others explicitly say DO NOT use TSP?
Just a guess,

Many people don't want to use TSP, and don't use it correctly. So
were ever you don't have to, I guess paint manufactures are willing to
brag you shouldn't.

Just a guess, and TSP prep-hater. ;)

tom @ www.FreelancingProjects.com
 
P

Phisherman

Why do some paint manufacturers recommend washing wood with TSP, and
others explicitly say DO NOT use TSP?

Some states (in the US) prohibit the sale of TSP due to environmental
concerns. TSP is a very strong detergent and it is particularly
effective in washing walls and outdoor things (furniture, siding,
decks, etc.). in general wood should not be "washed" with a
water-based detergent. It makes the fibers swell, and then when it
dries you have a rough surface that needs sanding.
 
G

George E. Cawthon

Ether said:
Why do some paint manufacturers recommend washing wood with TSP, and
others explicitly say DO NOT use TSP?
Trying to be environmentally correct is one
reason. Also TSP is supposed to be more difficult
to wash off than the silicate washing products and
if you don't wash thoroughly, the paint adherence
is adversely affected. Not my experience, but
maybe I use a lot less TSP than some people.
 
G

George E. Cawthon

Phisherman said:
Some states (in the US) prohibit the sale of TSP due to environmental
concerns. TSP is a very strong detergent and it is particularly
effective in washing walls and outdoor things (furniture, siding,
decks, etc.). in general wood should not be "washed" with a
water-based detergent. It makes the fibers swell, and then when it
dries you have a rough surface that needs sanding.
UMM, don't you think the OP is talking about
washing painted surfaces? Name a state that
prohibits sale of TSP. Some may regulate the
sale, but I doubt that any prohibit the sale.
 
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E

Ether Jones

George said:
UMM, don't you think the OP is talking about
washing painted surfaces?
Shouldn't unpainted wood be washed before painting? How else are you
going to remove the dust and dirt?

Every paint can label I've read says you should wash the wood to remove
dirt and dust.

Some say even clean new wood must be washed to remove mill glaze.

But what to use? I've heard TSP will interfere with paint adhesion if
not thoroughly rinsed off. But if the wood absorbs the TSP solution,
how can you thoroughly rinse it off?

In such a case, would it be best to thoroughly soak the wood first with
clear water, and only then apply the TSP (or other detergent solution)?

Are there any chemical rinses which could be used AFTER washing to help
rinse away or neutralize any remaining detergent, so it doesn't
interfere with paint adhesion? What about oxalic acid for example?
 
E

Ether Jones

m said:
who says dont use tsp
I've seen at least one paint can label that explicity said NOT to use
TSP. I'm quite sure of this, because it caught my attention. I didn't
get the impression it was an environmental issue, but rather a product
performance issue.

But I've looked at so many paint can labels lately I don't remember the
brand or product name. If I come across it again I'll make a note next
time.
 
E

Ether Jones

Tom said:
Just a guess, and TSP prep-hater. ;)
Why are you a TSP prep-hater? What are the issues that concern you?
Any tips on how to do it correctly?
 
Z

zxcvbob

Ether said:
Why do some paint manufacturers recommend washing wood with TSP, and
others explicitly say DO NOT use TSP?


BTW, you should look for "trisodium phosphate", not "TSP". Some
unscrupulous company is selling... I think it's sodium carbonate; under
then brand name "TSP".

Read the label. The fine print will tell you what's in there.

HTH, :)
Bob
 
E

Ether Jones

Phisherman said:
in general wood should not be "washed" with a
water-based detergent. It makes the fibers swell, and then when it
dries you have a rough surface that needs sanding.
Why do all the paint can labels tell you to wash the wood, and many
explicitly tell you to use TSP (which is obviously water-based) ?

If you don't wash the wood, how are you supposed to remove the dust and
dirt and grease and wax (old wood) or mill glaze (clean new wood)?
 
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E

Ether Jones

zxcvbob said:
Some unscrupulous company is selling... I think it's sodium carbonate; under
then brand name "TSP".
I think you're talking about "TSP substitute". I don't think TSP
substitute is sodium carbonate (washing soda). I think it's sodium
metasilicate. Big difference.

It is my understanding that sodium metasilicate is a slightly less
effective cleaner, BUT it rinses off more easily leaving no residue to
interfere with paint adhesion. Can anyone confirm/refute this?
 
G

George E. Cawthon

Ether said:
I think you're talking about "TSP substitute". I don't think TSP
substitute is sodium carbonate (washing soda). I think it's sodium
metasilicate. Big difference.

It is my understanding that sodium metasilicate is a slightly less
effective cleaner, BUT it rinses off more easily leaving no residue to
interfere with paint adhesion. Can anyone confirm/refute this?
You are absolutely correct! Any real paint store
will have both products and confirm what you said.

BTW, if you use TSP, you should not put it down
your drain but poor it on your lawn or garden.
Dilute it if the concentration bothers you. That
way your lawn or garden benefits from the
phosphorous and the stuff stays out of the sewer
system and streams.
 
G

George E. Cawthon

Ether said:
Why do all the paint can labels tell you to wash the wood, and many
explicitly tell you to use TSP (which is obviously water-based) ?

If you don't wash the wood, how are you supposed to remove the dust and
dirt and grease and wax (old wood) or mill glaze (clean new wood)?
Wood should not be washed if a smooth surface is
wanted or you are not prepared to sand afterwards.
In most cases a light sanding (no washing) is
all that is needed.
 
M

m Ransley

I dought any manufacturer of regular paint says dont use Tsp, and you
cant of course remember who said it. Tsp will only affect gloss if not
thoroughly rinsed. Mill glase, now you worry to much. Dust, just dust it
off. Not all wood should be washed, if you use Tsp just rinse well with
very clean water. Tsp has been the norm for cleaning wood for 50-60?
years.
 
T

Tom The Great

Why are you a TSP prep-hater? What are the issues that concern you?
Any tips on how to do it correctly?

I long time ago, I learned about TSP's amazing powers. We would steal
some off out ELT's to clean bilges. We had to add very little
relative to the amount of water.

Well, because I know of TSP's powers, I tend to rinse extra hard.
Causing me to wipe down walls over and over, since the littlest amount
of TSP could interfere with paint adheasion.

So, I preferer not to use TSP, and use better paint, or sand down the
surfaces to give the paint bite, and remove dirt.

later,

tom @ www.WorkAtHomePlans.com
 
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T

Tom The Great

Shouldn't unpainted wood be washed before painting? How else are you
going to remove the dust and dirt?

Every paint can label I've read says you should wash the wood to remove
dirt and dust.

Some say even clean new wood must be washed to remove mill glaze.

But what to use? I've heard TSP will interfere with paint adhesion if
not thoroughly rinsed off. But if the wood absorbs the TSP solution,
how can you thoroughly rinse it off?

In such a case, would it be best to thoroughly soak the wood first with
clear water, and only then apply the TSP (or other detergent solution)?

Are there any chemical rinses which could be used AFTER washing to help
rinse away or neutralize any remaining detergent, so it doesn't
interfere with paint adhesion? What about oxalic acid for example?

Many I'm ruled by my parinoia's :)

I don't like washing wood, with water, but cleaning wood with items
like vacuuming and tack clothes. Water can cause the grains to lift
up uneven, and give the wood a 'bumpy' feeling. Also, not liking to
use TSP, I have a hard time thinking I could remove 100% of TSP used
on bare wood.

So I try to sand, vacuum, and tack cloth where needed.

later,

tom @ www.FindMeShelter.com
 
E

Ether Jones

m said:
I dought any manufacturer of regular paint says dont use Tsp, and you cant of course remember who said it.
No, I can't, but I've still got some more paint shopping to do, and
I'll keep an eye out for it. I'll post the specific brand and product
name if I come across it again.

Tsp will only affect gloss if not thoroughly rinsed.
I doubt the correctness of this statement. Everything else I have read
indicates that TSP affects the paint's adhesion, and can result and
premature paint failure and blistering.
Mill glase, now you worry to much.
Mill glaze apparently is a big issue for stains. Maybe not so much for
paints?
 
G

George E. Cawthon

Ether said:
Shouldn't unpainted wood be washed before painting? How else are you
going to remove the dust and dirt?


Every paint can label I've read says you should wash the wood to remove
dirt and dust.

Some say even clean new wood must be washed to remove mill glaze.

But what to use? I've heard TSP will interfere with paint adhesion if
not thoroughly rinsed off. But if the wood absorbs the TSP solution,
how can you thoroughly rinse it off?

In such a case, would it be best to thoroughly soak the wood first with
clear water, and only then apply the TSP (or other detergent solution)?

Are there any chemical rinses which could be used AFTER washing to help
rinse away or neutralize any remaining detergent, so it doesn't
interfere with paint adhesion? What about oxalic acid for example?
I presume you are talking about a house or wood
construction outside. In cabinetry and furniture
construction and new interior construction, there
is no need to wash new wood. Woodworkers don't
wash wood, or if they do they sand afterwards.
Water on raw wood has undesirable effect including
raising the grain and warping. If it is old
construction is should have been painted or some
type of finish applied, As a result, washing
doesn't affect the wood (except in small spots
where the paint has worn or flaked off, and those
places should be scraped or sanded).

If there is grease on old wood, you might want to
consider replacing the wood, but if you wash it,
you need to let it dry thoroughly and then sand.
If you have little spots that need washing, just
wash those spots.

To be more definitive, we need to know what you
are talking about washing. In general, dirt or
dust is removed by wiping with a damp cloth.
Washing wood to get rid of mill glaze is just
plain stupid. The only reason to get rid of the
glaze is to improve adhesion and you do that by
lightly sanding with 220-400 grit paper for painting.

Yes you can neutralize TSP if you want. TSP is a
base, that is why it is slippery (slippery is
caused by dissolving the oils and your skin). So
to neutralize it your guess about using an acid is
correct. But, just use vinegar not oxalic acid.

Be careful what you read on the instructions of
paint cans. The manufacture has reasons for what
he puts on the can (mostly for adhesion purposes),
but may not care about some things that are
important to you. A good book on painting and
other finishes is far more likely to provide
useful information. For example, a good
undercoat can be slapped on just about anything
including your hands and it will stick. But you
don't want to put it on globs of mud or something
that will show through.
 
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E

Ether Jones

George said:
I presume you are talking about a house or wood
construction outside. If it is old
construction is should have been painted or some
type of finish applied, As a result, washing
doesn't affect the wood (except in small spots
where the paint has worn or flaked off, and those
places should be scraped or sanded).
It's an 8-year-old exterior wrap-around porch with white cedar decking
and stairs, previously oil-primed and latex-topcoated.

There's a 200 square foot section (including stairs) that's in bad
shape. Large areas (as big as a postcard in some cases, or bigger) are
blistering (both paint and primer) revealing large patches of weathered
wood beneath (light grayish-brown).

I don't mind paying top-dollar for a quality paint if I just knew what
to buy and how to prepare the surface properly.

Sanding is out of the question; I don't want the mess, or the dust in
my lungs.

I was leaning toward power-washing, but you (and others) have said
don't wash bare wood, is that correct? (Or is this situation an
exception?)

What options does that leave? Scraping? I could do that, but how
effective would it be? (Should I use a heat gun or just try to get the
stuff that comes off easily with just mechanical scraping?). And how do
I get rid of the ground-in dirt, if I don't wash it? In your previous
post, you mentioned wiping with a damp cloth; does that advice apply
to the situation I described?

If I wash it, should I use just clear water, or TSP, or TSP substitute,
or something else? If I use TSP, should I use an acid rinse to get rid
of the residue?

Lots of questions I know, but that's what I'm trying to figure out.

I don't mind touching it up every spring. What I don't want is large
areas of blistering that leave the wood unprotected.

A good book on painting and
other finishes is far more likely to provide
useful information
Do you have a favorite book in mind which you have found to be
well-written and accurate, that you could recommend?
 

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