Often worth a quick look. ;-)

[Appin]

The message <[email protected]>
from T i m <[email protected]> contains these words:

Yeah, whilst I enjoy the side effects of their popularity (plenty of
spares etc) I'm no real fan either. Our main cleaner is a Miele Cat n
Dog as it's way quieter than any Dyson.

No quarrel with the quality of a Miele -- but all the Miele models seem
to use dust bags and therefore have high running costs

 

[Guest]

People like us are probably anti-social though - they tell us that the
modern economy depends on everybody buying lots of stuff. If we didn't
keep replacing all our stuff, where would the jobs be?

Mending stuff.

It's kind of crazy, isn't it?

Yes.

 

[geoff]

A friend was getting rid of a motorbike ('86 Kawasaki 'Ninja' 250) that
had been sitting in his garage for a year not working, and I offered to
take it off his hands (I'm quite generous like that). I tracked the
main problem down to a rusty petrol tank, and specks of rust in the
deep recesses of the carburettor, and after fixing that and cleaning
the rust out of the cooling system, assorted fibreglass repairs, and a
few other minor issues, the bike ran well. I've been commuting on it
for the past 6 years, and it has been totally reliable. Performs better
than the Norton Dominator 500 I had many moons ago. I get a kick out
of keeping something like this on the road, whereas the idea of a new
bike has very little appeal. My Dad was always fixing things - it must
be genetic.

Yeah, I used to think like that years ago

now I prefer something that just doesn't let me down

 

[T i m]

A friend was getting rid of a motorbike ('86 Kawasaki 'Ninja' 250) that had been
sitting in his garage for a year not working, and I offered to take it off his
hands (I'm quite generous like that).

I did something very similar last year with a GPZ550 (A2). What
started as a quick tidy up turned into a rebuild of he rear brake
system, new chain, making new (stainless) pins for the Uni-track
setup, strip / clean the 4 carbs, weld up the exhaust, re-chrome the
fork stanchions, strip / clean / replace the front brakes and
anti-dive system and generally returning some modded bits to stock.
I've probably spent more on it than it's worth but it's worth a
motorbike to me and I'd probably do the same even if it was a newer
machine. ;-)

I tracked the main problem down to a
rusty petrol tank, and specks of rust in the deep recesses of the carburettor,
and after fixing that and cleaning the rust out of the cooling system, assorted
fibreglass repairs, and a few other minor issues, the bike ran well.

Kawasaki are know for some pretty reliable engines aren't they (or is
it just their inline 4's)?

I've been
commuting on it for the past 6 years, and it has been totally reliable.
Nice.

Performs better than the Norton Dominator 500 I had many moons ago.

The nearest I've ever got to Brit Iron was the Madras made REB 350!

I get a
kick out of keeping something like this on the road,

Same here. [1]

whereas the idea of a new
bike has very little appeal.

Likewise. I've only ever had one new 'bike' and it was a Yamaha B Wizz
scooter. To be fair it was the result of us outgrowing a Yamaha XT350
and we got the Scooter new in exchange.

My first was a Honda P50 bought from my school teacher with a stripped
spark plug thread. I then used it for college and everything for 6
months. Then the NSU Quickly that I was given in kit form in a
wheelbarrow. I also got Dads, then my Uncles Lambretta LD150 then an
SX150 (I commuted to BT on for a couple of years). The Messerschmitt
KR200 was bought as a runner but the Morris Minor van needed a new
gearbox before I could drive it home (so I fitted one in their car
park) ... etc etc.

My Dad was always fixing things - it must be genetic.

My Dad was more of a carpenter than a fixer but I must have learned
some of the basic processes from him (and borrowed most of his tools).
;-) [2]

My general "fix it' mentality probably came out of the thought that I
probably wouldn't get anything even if I asked for it so did the best
thing and got broken stuff cheap and made it work.

Cheers, T i m

[1] Not only is there the reward of getting about using something that
was once a non runner but it's also quite nice when someone
appreciates your efforts. The "Not seen one as tidy as that for a
while" or "You've done a good job on that" are all extra cherries on
the cake. Another big plus is because you have probably been all over
the thing at one time or another you are often in a better position to
fix it should it go wrong.

[2] I think having access to a reasonable range of tools and a small
workshop had a big bearing on how I became interested in doing stuff.
Having said that I equally enjoyed 'helping' my Uncle work on his
scooter in his kitchen. ;-)

 

[T i m]

People like us are probably anti-social though - they tell us that the modern
economy depends on everybody buying lots of stuff.

Hmm ..

If we didn't keep replacing
all our stuff, where would the jobs be?

Back in the UK repairing the stuff that was made abroad? ;-)

It's kind of crazy, isn't it?

It is, and (IMHO) unsustainable.

Look at how they treat 'stuff' in 3rd world countries. Stripping
pretty well everything down and rebuilding it. As mentioned elsewhere,
at first glance that sounds much better than melting it down and
trying to turn it into something else.

Cheers, T im

 

[S Viemeister]

After 5 years (and a "free" five year warranty that really paid for
itself many times over) the only bits of our Dyson cylinder vac which
were original were the dust jug and the metal tubes. Everything else
had been replaced at least once -- including the motor and the cable
reel. Other parts up to seven times.

You've been unlucky - we're still using our DC 01 bought just over 12
years ago, and my uncle is still using one which is at least 15 years
old. He did have to replace the belt once, though.

 

[T i m]

The message <[email protected]>
from T i m <[email protected]> contains these words:




No quarrel with the quality of a Miele -- but all the Miele models seem
to use dust bags and therefore have high running costs

I'm in two minds about the dust bag / bagless thing. It's quite nice
to be able to just lift a (self sealing) bag out of the cleaner and
chuck it in the bin rather than risk spilling / dust all over the
place when you empty a bag less. The bag less ones still generally
have filters and I'm not sure they are quite as good when it comes to
the HEPA level bagged stuff (the bag acting as another filter etc)?

Cheers, T i m

 

[T i m]

On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 21:15:19 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson

Actually, the spares were part of the problem - I remember my folks had a
Dyson and a little plastic widget at the end of the hose broke; Dyson
didn't carry the widget as a spare, but instead wanted to charge me an
arm and a leg for a whole replacement hose assembly. In the end freecycle
provided what I needed - but it always bugs me when the manufacturer who
makes the parts doesn't sell them as spares, but instead tries to palm
folk off with some larger module (that grates with my frugal side, too!)

I was luckier. When I collected my Freecycle DC05 I also had the
little clip broken (well the moulding was split). I rang Dyson and
asked for the replacement 'bit' but told it was part of the wand, not
available as a spare. I (nicely) questioned the design and they
offered to send me a new wand foc. ;-) (I noticed the replacement
item was of a more robust design).

Our main cleaner is a Miele Cat n Dog as it's way quieter than any

Dyson. [1]

I really don't know if I can get Miele stuff this side of the Atlantic -
must check. I keep hearing good things about them (but then maybe they're
not *that* good, and it's just that everyone else is really bad ;-)

I noticed that some of the new models have remote / wireless control
of the motor speed from the handle!

Ours are all hardwood strips of about 3/4" deep and 1 1/2" wide (which is
quite narrow compared to most hardwood floors). A couple of the rooms
could do with sanding and refinishing in a year or two, but the guy who
lives next to us owns a hardwood flooring company, so I'm sure we can
come to some arrangement

Very handy.

It's astounding how much dust and debris collects on the stairs, though -
dust and debris which otherwise would have been trapped by carpets.

A while back I bought an air cleaner thing (with assistance from some
good folk here) and use now use if I'm going to be pulling stuff about
in a room and likely to be disturbing dust etc.

I've heard that from people with allergies, actually, that they seem to
just come and go sometimes. I suppose it's something like you inhale
something that disagrees with you, and that makes you really prone to
other airborne things until your body figures it out - until the next
time, anyway.

Could be. I'd never reacted to anything, food or stuff on my skin so
it was a bit of shock to be told I might have something this late in
life and possibly quite difficult / costly to manage (soft
furnishings / carpets etc).

We've got two dogs and three cats here, but thankfully all seem allergy-
free (unlike the mother-in-law, which can be a blessing

We had 3 dogs (Whippet / Lurcher / cross) and I never had an issue.

[1] Bought with the aid of a sound level meter in the local electrical
shop. They seemed quite keen to entertain this particular 'nutter' as
well, dragging machines out from the store just to see how they
compared! ;-)

I like that

Seemed perfectly sensible to me, especially as I had gone to check out
other cleaners as the existing one was making my tinnitus worse.

I'm almost surprised that they aren't required to publish
noise info for cleaners, actually - it's probably fairly high up on the
list of things that make a difference (although perhaps one that most
folk don't think about at purchase time)

I don't think they do, "It's a cleaner, it's going to be noisy".

Maybe because of my tinnitus I consider noise more. I've just built a
little home server and it's virtually silent (and without using
expensive components). I've never liked loud exhausts on machines (I
fitted the factory stainless system on the kitcar but replaced it with
a stock Escort (but stainless) exhaust two weeks later). I wear ear
defenders when working with anything 'noisy' and electronic noise
damping ones when shooting.

Of all the cleaners we tested the Dysons and the big industrial
cylinders (like the Henry and Vax) were the loudest.

Cheers, T i m

 

[Huge]

On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 21:15:19 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson

You may not be able to get Miele, but you can get Sebo(*), who make really
good vacuum cleaners.

(* I saw the cleaners using them in a hotel in Elizabethtown, PA.)

 

[Jules Richardson]

I'm in two minds about the dust bag / bagless thing. It's quite nice to
be able to just lift a (self sealing) bag out of the cleaner and chuck
it in the bin rather than risk spilling / dust all over the place when
you empty a bag less. The bag less ones still generally have filters and
I'm not sure they are quite as good when it comes to the HEPA level
bagged stuff (the bag acting as another filter etc)?

Hmm, our upright is bagless - I must admit it's very nice; I just dump
the contents way out in the woods (it's nearly all dirt and hair, after
all! when it's full and give the cartridge filter a good few smacks
against a tree.

Only gripe with it is that it sucks from one end of the rotating brush
section rather than the middle, which means that suction at the far end
of the brushes isn't what it could be.

cheers

Jules

 

[Appin]

The message <[email protected]>

You've been unlucky - we're still using our DC 01 bought just over 12
years ago, and my uncle is still using one which is at least 15 years
old. He did have to replace the belt once, though.

Wife has far too much testosterone -- most vacuum cleaners don't last
more than six months without breaking down. These insurance-based
multi-year warranties are wonderful in such a situation!

If Miele did a bagless one, I'd go for it, but I dread to think about
the cost of bags and the rate she'd go through them.

As it is, the least bad vacuums we've had over the years have been
Panasonics, though they're not really the most easily serviced or
repaired.

 

[Appin]

The message <[email protected]>

I'm in two minds about the dust bag / bagless thing. It's quite nice
to be able to just lift a (self sealing) bag out of the cleaner and
chuck it in the bin rather than risk spilling / dust all over the
place when you empty a bag less. The bag less ones still generally
have filters and I'm not sure they are quite as good when it comes to
the HEPA level bagged stuff (the bag acting as another filter etc)?

The cyclone design will determine how much dust gets as far as the
filters. No reason why a bagless shouldn't be just as clean as a bagged
one -- it simply needs an extra stage of filtration. And yes, filters
cost money. But not as frequently or as much over the lifetime of the
machine as bags do.

 

[S Viemeister]

The message<[email protected]>



Wife has far too much testosterone -- most vacuum cleaners don't last
more than six months without breaking down. These insurance-based
multi-year warranties are wonderful in such a situation!

If Miele did a bagless one, I'd go for it, but I dread to think about
the cost of bags and the rate she'd go through them.

As it is, the least bad vacuums we've had over the years have been
Panasonics, though they're not really the most easily serviced or
repaired.

Perhaps you should relieve her of her stoor-sooker duties?

 

[Appin]

The message <[email protected]>

Perhaps you should relieve her of her stoor-sooker duties?

Nah .... SWMBO has more testosterone than the average teenage boy.
Better to let her take it out on the vacuum cleaner and carpet -- at
least that's relatively harmless!

 

[T i m]

If Miele did a bagless one, I'd go for it, but I dread to think about
the cost of bags and the rate she'd go through them.

What do you make of this tho (content, not the presenter) ...

and this ..

Cheers, T i m

 

[Appin]

The message <[email protected]>

What do you make of this tho (content, not the presenter) ...

and this ..

What an imbecile that sales guy is -- dishonest as the day is long :-(.
Even claims he's not a salesman!

1. I'm not questioning that Miele are excellent machines. I have
experience of Miele washing machines and I've found nothing to touch
them at the price or far beyond it.

2. I'm not a fan of Dysons, but why compare apples and oranges? Two
totally-different types of machine.

3 Obvioulsy there are degrees of filtration and different numbers of
stages of filtration and different finenesses of filters. Some vacuums
have seven stages of filtration and some have much finer filters than
others.

4. There are trade-offs. Very good particulate emission may be little
good if the vacuum doesn't pick up very much dirt anyway.

5. What sort of fool imagines that a cyclone is going to be the best
way of picking up kapok? Cyclones are rather good with fine dust,
rather poor with something like kapok.

6 Of course the guy wants to sell a bagged machine -- he'll make
plenty of money on the bags over the years.

7. Surely no-one imagined that a bagless machine is more convenient
than one using a bag?

8. And when the bag for your model is no longer available?


Mieles are very fine machines.

I have nothing to say against them as machines.

I appreciate that there are reasons that Miele prefer to stick with the
bagged design.

I appreciate that the quality end of the market into which Miele sell
are unlikely to balk at the price of bags.

However, the way a vacuum gets used here, bagless is better. And there
are plenty of bagless ones with very good multi-stage filtration to
HEPA standards. Certainly much easier to achieve with a bagged cleaner,
but not at all impossible to do with a bagless one. The downside is
that you have more filters to replace periodically. Still generally
much cheaper than the bags, though.

Incidentally, almost twenty years ago we had a very interesting
experience trying to clean up the inside of a 1000 seat auditorium which
had had the vaulted ceiling replastered. When it came to try to clean
the place up afterwards we tried (quite literally) dozens of different
domestic and commercial vacuums. None of them would run for longer than
a minute before blocking up bags and/or filters on plaster dust.
Eventually we borrowed a great big 50-gallon machine from a local grain
drier. 3 separately-switched kW motors and filters suitable for grain
dust. Perfect. Did the job no problem. Horses for courses and all
that.

 

[T i m]

The message <[email protected]>




What an imbecile that sales guy is -- dishonest as the day is long :-(.
Even claims he's not a salesman!
;-)

1. I'm not questioning that Miele are excellent machines. I have
experience of Miele washing machines and I've found nothing to touch
them at the price or far beyond it.

And I wasn't suggesting Miele were particularly good, just happens to
be what I have and chose because of it's low noise.

2. I'm not a fan of Dysons, but why compare apples and oranges? Two
totally-different types of machine.

But both domestic cleaners so both should be equally competent at
cleaning the same range of things.

3 Obvioulsy there are degrees of filtration and different numbers of
stages of filtration and different finenesses of filters. Some vacuums
have seven stages of filtration and some have much finer filters than
others.

So if you don't want to simply re-distribute the dust around the house
you need the cleaner with the best filtration, always.

4. There are trade-offs. Very good particulate emission may be little
good if the vacuum doesn't pick up very much dirt anyway.
Agreed.

5. What sort of fool imagines that a cyclone is going to be the best
way of picking up kapok?

If kapok is representative of animal hair then why not include that in
a test of any domestic cleaner?

Cyclones are rather good with fine dust,
rather poor with something like kapok.

So where does that place the Dyson 'Animal' models?

6 Of course the guy wants to sell a bagged machine -- he'll make
plenty of money on the bags over the years.

We buy the bags for our Miele from the same bloke down the market
where we buy the Dyson filters. ;-)

7. Surely no-one imagined that a bagless machine is more convenient
than one using a bag?

I thought that was part of their sales pitch? Especially the ones
where you pull the trigger and the cylinder base opens up?

8. And when the bag for your model is no longer available?

Interesting point but I can't say I've ever experienced it (not saying
it doesn't happen of course).

Mieles are very fine machines.

Ours seems ok and is still quiet. I tend to use it on the lowest power
setting as well and it seems to work ok.

I have nothing to say against them as machines.

I have, I paid more for ours than I have ever paid for a car! ;-(

I appreciate that there are reasons that Miele prefer to stick with the
bagged design.

There may also be some good technical reasons for doing so?

I appreciate that the quality end of the market into which Miele sell
are unlikely to balk at the price of bags.

Good point (except re us of course, not being yer typical 'badge
buying' customer).

However, the way a vacuum gets used here, bagless is better. And there
are plenty of bagless ones with very good multi-stage filtration to
HEPA standards.

I'm sure there are.

Certainly much easier to achieve with a bagged cleaner,
but not at all impossible to do with a bagless one.

So you are saying you are more likely to find a HEPA std bagged
cleaner?

The downside is
that you have more filters to replace periodically. Still generally
much cheaper than the bags, though.

Cheaper I'll give you but I've noticed how quickly the Dyson needs
emptying compared with the Miele. Not all of that will be down to how
much each can collect. Time is money! ;-)

Incidentally, almost twenty years ago we had a very interesting
experience trying to clean up the inside of a 1000 seat auditorium which
had had the vaulted ceiling replastered. When it came to try to clean
the place up afterwards we tried (quite literally) dozens of different
domestic and commercial vacuums. None of them would run for longer than
a minute before blocking up bags and/or filters on plaster dust.
Eventually we borrowed a great big 50-gallon machine from a local grain
drier. 3 separately-switched kW motors and filters suitable for grain
dust. Perfect. Did the job no problem. Horses for courses and all
that.

Yup. I still keep the Henry for building type jobs (where the general
dust levels mean HEPA is a bit irrelevant) and have a Vax in the loft
should we ever need to get really serious or vacuum up water etc! ;-)

Cheers, T i m

 

[T i m]

So you were too lazy to kick it.

Funnily enough I'm not a kicker .. possibly as it's me that would have
to get the dents out. ;-(

Be gone from here, sir!
YOU have soiled this group!

Sorry ... right, off to buy some new stuff to replace the current
perfectly functional stuff then (ok?). ;-)

T i m

 

[Bruce]

</SNIP>

Apart from Dyson owning all the patents then?

Dyson own some patents, but not enough to prevent several other
manufacturers from producing bagless vacuum cleaners.

Perhaps Miele does not want to produce bagless vacuum cleaners.

 

[dennis@home]

Especially since Dysons are so easy to take apart and clean out.

They have tried a Sebo and can't wait for the dyson to die.