Multi fuel wood burning stoves

[Tim Watts]

Ronald Raygun ([email protected]) wibbled on Tuesday 04 January
2011 11:54:

Local distributors.

Anthracite - DJ Davies of Wales, tonne at a time.

Phurnacite - Fergusson of Scotland, tonne

Both are shipped on a pallette of 40 x 25kg or 50 x 20kg bags and works out
rather less all in (50-70 quid) less than the "local" coal merchants.

Only downside is unloading a pallette but even I can do that in an hour and
bags are handy of you don't have a bunker - pile them up all over the place
whereever's out the way.

 

[Tim Watts]

Ronald Raygun ([email protected]) wibbled on Tuesday 04 January
2011 12:43:

Your ashes should never be red hot except after riddling. You should
empty the ashpan *before* riddling, when it will have had 8-12 hours to
cool down from the last riddling.

My routine was to remove the full ashpan and put it down underneath or in
front of the stove, onto the (relatively) cool hearth plinth for 20 mins
or so while making breakfast. Then they were cool enough to be tipped
into
a plastic bin. Then replace ashpan, riddle, top up fuel. Without this
cooling-down step, the ashes would have had to be tipped into a metal
bucket first, which generates quite a bit of dust.

I went to a lot of trouble to procure a metal bucket (they aren't in even
the most Arkwrighty of hardwaqre stores here). I keep it outside and carry
the ashpan and dump it there, red hot if needs be.

I learnt last year dumping ask inside was a bad idea...

I get virtually no spillage - a little dust does accumulate near the stove
but I hoover that up when the stove is cold - or wipe it up with a damp
cloth.

True, alas. Better not to have carpet near the stove.


Try gloves.

Ash comes off pretty easiliy IME - it's coal dust that gets ingrained...

That would have been the case if you used e.g. Coalite which is very
light,
or even actual coal. You need the dense stuff like Ancit or Phurnacite.

Yep - Phurnacite has the best energy density, easiest to light (with just
large chuck of firelighter) and best slumbering of several I tried
(Maxibrite, Anthracite, New Flame and wood). Antracite had the disadvntage
that it clickers up the grate which the manufacturered fuels don't.

 

[Jim K]

You should
empty the ashpan *before* riddling, when it will have had 8-12 hours to
cool down from the last riddling.

"cool down" ? inside a 200degC metal box runnning 24/7 as you say?
erm....

My routine was to remove the full ashpan and put it down underneath or in
front of the stove, onto the (relatively) cool hearth plinth for 20 mins
or so while making breakfast. Then they were cool enough to be tipped into
a plastic bin. Then replace ashpan, riddle, top up fuel. Without this
cooling-down step, the ashes would have had to be tipped into a metal
bucket first, which generates quite a bit of dust.

how big was your ashpan?!

Try gloves.

clean pair each time? ;>) - coal dust gets everywhere including inside
gloves.

Jim K

 

[Ronald Raygun]

"cool down" ? inside a 200degC metal box runnning 24/7 as you say?
erm....

Erm what? Would you not agree that 200degC is a lot cooler than red hot?
The idea is that when the ashpan comes out of the stove, it should not be
at the temperature of the red hot embers but at the cooler temperature of
the stove itself. That's phase 1 of the coolong down. Phase 2 (described
below) then cools the ashes down further so that they could be dumped into
a plastic bin without risk of melting it.

how big was your ashpan?!

Why do you ask? Can't remember exactly. In inches it's something like
7x10x1.5; it has to fit through the small lower door. It needed emptying
only once a day when using phurnacite.

I now live with a 2-oven (pre-1974 "Deluxe") Aga range with water heater.
The ash pan on that is much bigger than the Squirrel's, some 6x14x4 in3,
because it uses more fuel (around 15-20 lbs a day), but still needs emptying
only once a day. I tip that into a metal bucket in the back door vestibule
and quickly close the kitchen door to keep most of the ash dust out. This
bucket holds about 3-4 days' worth of ash.

The Aga ash pan often has the odd red hot chunk of not-fully-burnt fuel in
it even before riddling, so the ash needs to cool in the metal bucket for a
whole day before I empty the bucket into a bin liner.

 

[Ronald Raygun]

Ronald Raygun ([email protected]) wibbled on Tuesday 04
January 2011 11:54:


Anthracite - DJ Davies of Wales, tonne at a time.

Phurnacite - Fergusson of Scotland, tonne

Both are shipped on a pallette of 40 x 25kg or 50 x 20kg bags and works
out rather less all in (50-70 quid) less than the "local" coal merchants.

Only downside is unloading a pallette but even I can do that in an hour
and bags are handy of you don't have a bunker - pile them up all over the
place whereever's out the way.

Fergusson *is* my local distributor.

I do have a bunker, so get my phurnacite delivered in open 50kg sacks which
they empty into the bunker, and take the sacks away to re-use. It's not a
huge bunker so I can only take 300kg per delivery. At that quantity I'm
currently paying £417 per tonne.

 

[S Viemeister]

On Jan 4, 12:43 pm, Ronald Raygun<[email protected]>
wrote:

clean pair each time? ;>) - coal dust gets everywhere including inside
gloves.

I use cheap disposables for messy jobs like that.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

I read somewhere recently, in one forum or other, that you;d need
about 10 acres to be completely self-sufficient for a 3-4 bedroom
house.

I would say that is about right.

Fortunately I' not aiming to be self-sufficient. With the space
available I reckon I could grow 100 trees and still have some garden
left, but on (for the sake of argument) 5 year rotation for ash, that
would mean I was only coppicing 20 trees a year - say 100 poles if I
was lucky.

poles don't make very good firewood. Best is mature trees and they take
many years.

 

[geraldthehamster]

I would say that is about right.


poles don't make very good firewood. Best is mature trees and they take
many years.




- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're right, coppicing as a source of fuel will never catch on.

Cheers
Richard

 

[harry]

Thanks (with one obvious exception) for the replies.

I've been sort of offered a Stovax Sheraton in need of refurbishment,
which on the face of it looks plausible if the price is right. I won't
be using a back boiler. I'm intending to use it as a backup to our
bottled gas central heating boiler (no mains gas out here). Next
winter if I can avoid using the boiler so much, maybe it'll cost me
less than the £400 quid I spent on gas in December just in keeping the
house warm.

Then there's the question of fuel - where do stove users on the list
get theirs from? I suppose it would be handy to make friends with a
few tree surgeons. I've considered turning half my garden into an ash
coppice, but from what I've read on the amount of land needed, I'd be
very far from self-sufficiency, though it might make a contribution.

Cheers
Richard

I have planted firewood on my ground, it'll be a year or two before
it's ready. I have an estimated four year supply to hand.
Meantime I travel with a bowsaw in the back of my car. I f I see a
fallen branch, it's mine. Builders merchants &c have pallets and
spacers and other scrap timber you can use. Tree surgeons normally cut
up & sell their timber.
As someone else said, it's getting harder to find & more expensive to
buy.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

You're right, coppicing as a source of fuel will never catch on.

oh, it can, but its a poor source for all but boilers designed for it.

there isn't enough land area for it to make more than a small dent in
energy usage: Its also possible that deforestation causes climatic
shifts as well.

But if the alternative is bottled gas..you probably need a heatpump!

you can get about 100w/sq meter out of that.

Unless they carry on building windmills of course. Then there won't be
any electricity at all

 

[John]

As someone else said, it's getting harder to find & more expensive to

buy.>

Our local B&Q has a pile of pallets outside with a sign saying
"Firewood - help yourself"
You could try asking at your local stores.

John

 

[Jim K]

Erm what? Would you not agree that 200degC is a lot cooler than red hot?

so what? still too hot to handle without metalware/dust (whatever
colour it is)?

The idea is that when the ashpan comes out of the stove, it should not be
at the temperature of the red hot embers but at the cooler temperature of
the stove itself. That's phase 1 of the coolong down. Phase 2 (described
below) then cools the ashes down further so that they could be dumped into
a plastic bin without risk of melting it.



Why do you ask?

cos a tiny one will cool down like you say I expect - however a larger
one will take longer.....

Jim K

 

[geraldthehamster]

oh, it can, but its a poor source for all but boilers designed for it.

there isn't enough land area for it to make more than a small dent in
energy usage: Its also possible that deforestation causes climatic
shifts as well.

But if the alternative is bottled gas..you probably need a heatpump!

you can get about 100w/sq meter out of that.

Unless they carry on building windmills of course. Then there won't be
any electricity at all

Coppicing isn't deforestation. Especially if you plant the coppice.
It's entirely carbon neutral.

Cheers
Richard

 

[Ronald Raygun]

so what? still too hot to handle without metalware/dust (whatever
colour it is)?

My point was that if I take out the ash pan and sit it on the stone hearth,
it stands a better chance of (within 20 minutes) ending up cool enough to
put it into a plastic container without risk of melting it or setting fire
to the wooden floor underneath, if said ash pan contains 200 degree ash
than if it contains red hot ash as it would if you riddled the stove before
taking out the ash pan.

Even if you use a metal bin/bucket so that you could, at a pinch, dump red
hot ash into it without risk of damage, red hot ash is more volatile and
dusty than 200 degree "cool" ash, so there is always an advantage in
riddling just after emptying compared with riddling just before emptying.

 

[Jim K]

my point is that if the OP is encouraged to run "24/7" with a *bigger*
stove than your old one, he will have to consider the supply and
disposal of fuel and waste/ashes and associated crap and filth - *more
so* with coal based solid fuels than wood IME.

Jim K

 

[geraldthehamster]

my point is that if the OP is encouraged to run "24/7" with a *bigger*
stove than your old one, he will have to consider the supply and
disposal of fuel and waste/ashes and associated crap and filth - *more
so* with coal based solid fuels than wood IME.

Jim K

OP here - not intending to run 24/7, or to use coal-based solid fuels.

Hope this helps this branch of the discussion ;-)

Cheers
Richard

 

[Ronald Raygun]

my point is that if the OP is encouraged to run "24/7" with a *bigger*
stove than your old one, he will have to consider the supply and
disposal of fuel and waste/ashes

So what? He will need to consider those things no matter how big or
small a stove he uses. The dodgy practice I described, of letting the
ash pan cool to room temperature for a short while before tipping it
into a plastic bin was not a recommendation (you should always use a
metal bin), it was merely illustrative to amplify the point that it is
important that one's riddling routine should be such as to avoid the
ash pan being full of red hot stuff while it is taken out of the stove.

Even when one tips it into a metal bin, it's better that the ashes
should be at 200 than at 600 degrees C. The hotter the ash, the more
volatile it is, so it will generate more dust whilst in transit to the
bucket. Also, the hotter it is, and the more you tip into the metal
bucket (especially when it is empty), the bucket itself can get hot
enough to make melt/burn marks on the floor.

and associated crap and filth - *more
so* with coal based solid fuels than wood IME.

Agreed, the risk of finding incompletely burnt (and still glowing) bits
sitting in the ash is lower with wood (provided the stove has not been
recently riddled!). At least this doesn't matter much when using a
metal ash bin.

But using wood for a 24/7 stove will produce a greater volume of ash per
day, the stove will tend to need more than one emptying per day, there is
a greater risk of the stove going out overnight, and it needs feeding more
frequently than if you use manufactured smokeless fuel. You need also to
consider the price of fuel, and to provide suitable on-site storage for it,
and for the same amount of energy you produce per day, you need either more
room or more frequent deliveries when your fuel of choice is wood.

The advantage of a multifuel stove is that you can mix and compromise. You
can burn wood while you're spending time in the room, and then top up with
black stuff for overnight.

 

[Jim K]

So what? He will need to consider those things no matter how big or
small a stove he uses.

So-- the bigger the ash pan the hotter it will stay for longer?

The dodgy practice I described, of letting the
ash pan cool to room temperature for a short while before tipping it
into a plastic bin was not a recommendation (you should always use a
metal bin), it was merely illustrative to amplify the point that it is
important that one's riddling routine should be such as to avoid the
ash pan being full of red hot stuff while it is taken out of the stove.

Even when one tips it into a metal bin, it's better that the ashes
should be at 200 than at 600 degrees C. The hotter the ash, the more
volatile it is, so it will generate more dust whilst in transit to the
bucket. Also, the hotter it is, and the more you tip into the metal
bucket (especially when it is empty), the bucket itself can get hot
enough to make melt/burn marks on the floor.

so keep it on the hearth til you sling it out?

NB I don't recall "less" dust from colder ashes.... but then I'm not
running 24/7...

Agreed, the risk of finding incompletely burnt (and still glowing) bits
sitting in the ash is lower with wood (provided the stove has not been
recently riddled!). At least this doesn't matter much when using a
metal ash bin.

of course we know we don;t riddle wood fires very often....they need
the bed of ash and only air from the top...

But using wood for a 24/7 stove will produce a greater volume of ash per
day, the stove will tend to need more than one emptying per day, there is
a greater risk of the stove going out overnight, and it needs feeding more
frequently than if you use manufactured smokeless fuel.

.... not IME no.

You need also to
consider the price of fuel, and to provide suitable on-site storage for it,
and for the same amount of energy you produce per day, you need either more
room or more frequent deliveries when your fuel of choice is wood.
indeed

The advantage of a multifuel stove is that you can mix and compromise. You
can burn wood while you're spending time in the room, and then top up with
black stuff for overnight.

but only after you've emptied all the woodash so the coal can burn
with air from the bottom as intended ;>)

Jim K

 

[S Viemeister]

Even when one tips it into a metal bin, it's better that the ashes
should be at 200 than at 600 degrees C. The hotter the ash, the more
volatile it is, so it will generate more dust whilst in transit to the
bucket. Also, the hotter it is, and the more you tip into the metal
bucket (especially when it is empty), the bucket itself can get hot
enough to make melt/burn marks on the floor.

My ash buckets have a double/false bottom - so are highly unlikely to
char the floor.

 

[Jim K]

<paraphrase>
"I must have the last word."
</paraphrase>

Flippineck Jim - put a sock in it mate! This has been an _extremely_
useful discussion for all of us who have been following it. Your own
points have been -- as always -- well made, and appreciated: thank you!

John

of course you are also welcome "John" to join in as you see fit.

I am merely trying to record a balanced view in the discussion from my
own experiences, & ISTR I have concurred on a number of aspects from
other posters.
..
Should you wish to stop reading this thread now then that is also
*your* choice....;>)

Jim K