Loft - Water Tank


C

Chris

Hi all!!

I am just about to have my loft converted.
I have a problem though - right in the middle of where I would like the room
to be there is my cold water tank. (see image) If I was to leave it where
it is this would really be a waste of space which I do not want.
I do not really want the tank taking out or anything I was just wondering if
it is possible that they can be moved... or are they where they are for a
reason. I would like it moving about 6ft to the right of where it is now
next to the wall (see image) as I am going to be boarding that section off
(where the + supports are). I also would like the pipes leading to the tank
re-routeing / lowered so it does not cause problems when they come to put
the floor in.

Does anyone have a rough idea of how much this would cost me and
approximately how long it would take a plumber to do?

Image At http://zeon.gotdns.com/loft.JPG


Thanks Allot

Chris A
 
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C

Chris

Rick Dipper said:
Sir

You can get "coffin" tanks that fit under the eves in the unusable
space for just this situation. When I move a tank it takes 1/2 to 1
day, and I am not a pro.

Rick
Hi
Thanks for the response. How much are these coffin tanks then? are they a
smaller and longer version, so they hold the same amount of water just not
as high I take it?
if it only takes half a day or so then I don't think it would be too
expensive to have done.

Thanks again

Chris A
 
J

Jim Hatfield

Thanks for the response. How much are these coffin tanks then? are they a
smaller and longer version, so they hold the same amount of water just not
as high I take it?
From the Screwfix cat:

25g 1390x500x310 £64.99
50g 1640x450x485 £79.99
70g 1615x610x500 £109.99
100g 1640x645x600 £139.99

jim
 
P

Peter Taylor

Chris wrote..
Hi all!!

I am just about to have my loft converted.
I have a problem though - right in the middle of where I would like the room
to be there is my cold water tank. (see image) If I was to leave it where
it is this would really be a waste of space which I do not want.
I do not really want the tank taking out or anything I was just wondering if
it is possible that they can be moved... or are they where they are for a
reason. I would like it moving about 6ft to the right of where it is now
next to the wall (see image) as I am going to be boarding that section off
(where the + supports are). I also would like the pipes leading to the tank
re-routeing / lowered so it does not cause problems when they come to put
the floor in.

Does anyone have a rough idea of how much this would cost me and
approximately how long it would take a plumber to do?

Image At http://zeon.gotdns.com/loft.JPG


Thanks Allot

Chris A
Are you sure moving the tank is not part of the work for converting the loft? I
can't see how they could do that work without moving the tank and they should
have included it in their estimate.

Peter
 
C

Chris

Peter Taylor said:
Chris wrote..

Are you sure moving the tank is not part of the work for converting the loft? I
can't see how they could do that work without moving the tank and they should
have included it in their estimate.

Peter
I told them that I wanted them to leave the tank to me as I was not to sure
at the time what I wanted to do with it.

How quick are plumbers in the Manchester area to get a quote off and to get
the job done? ideally I would like it out the way by the end of next week.
Think this would be possible? or would I be pushing it? lol.

On that note if there are any plumbers reading this in the Manchester area
(south) how much would I be looking to pay for this job to be done?

Thanks Allot

Chris
 
P

Peter Taylor

Chris said:
I told them that I wanted them to leave the tank to me as I was not to sure
at the time what I wanted to do with it.

How quick are plumbers in the Manchester area to get a quote off and to get
the job done? ideally I would like it out the way by the end of next week.
Think this would be possible? or would I be pushing it? lol.

On that note if there are any plumbers reading this in the Manchester area
(south) how much would I be looking to pay for this job to be done?

Thanks Allot

Chris
Haven't got a clue about Manchester plumbers as a) I'm a southerner and b) this
is a DIY group. It's not too major a job and if you want advice on how to do it
yourself then we're here to help. Otherwise why not simply ask the loft
contractor how much he would add to his price?

Peter
 
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J

John Rumm

Chris said:
I am just about to have my loft converted.
I have a problem though - right in the middle of where I would like the room
to be there is my cold water tank. (see image) If I was to leave it where
The other trick that can work well in these situations is to move the
tank high into the apex of the roof above the ceiling of the converted
loft. This will also mean that you have the required head to get gravity
fed water into the loft conversion. (i.e. if the tank feeds a hot water
cylinder somewhere, then moving the tank up would allow you hot water in
the converted loft if you were planning on a bathroom up there.
 
C

Chris

Peter Taylor said:
Haven't got a clue about Manchester plumbers as a) I'm a southerner and b) this
is a DIY group. It's not too major a job and if you want advice on how to do it
yourself then we're here to help. Otherwise why not simply ask the loft
contractor how much he would add to his price?

Peter
Its so tempting to do it myself, but i have never touched pluming before i
am more of an electrics person but yeh, if i had a manual (or a screen and
some posts) telling me how to do it i would have a good go.

Going to phone a plumber in the morning that a friend has recomended, see
what they have to say - all hangs on that really.

Thanks for the help

Chris A
 
C

Chris

John Rumm said:
where

The other trick that can work well in these situations is to move the
tank high into the apex of the roof above the ceiling of the converted
loft. This will also mean that you have the required head to get gravity
fed water into the loft conversion. (i.e. if the tank feeds a hot water
cylinder somewhere, then moving the tank up would allow you hot water in
the converted loft if you were planning on a bathroom up there.

Hopefully no water will be required in the loft. it is really just a cheap
job so i can get my much awaited home cinema and studdy :) occasional use
only really, maybe once or twice a week.
I am trying to keep costs down to a minimum. I dont exacally want to get
someone in to put the floor in for me but people keep telling me how hard it
is. Altho it looks fairly easy to do.
Would i be right in saying doubble up on the joists that are already there
so they are twice as thick and then on top of that going the opposite way
putting 3x2 wooden planks the same with appart as the joists so you get a:
++++
++++
++++ (join the gaps up tho)
cross sort of effect? I have seen it done this way at a friends house and
my friend still insists now that they guy that did his didnt even doubble up
on the joist width.

Thanks

Chris
 
J

John Rumm

Chris said:
Hopefully no water will be required in the loft. it is really just a cheap
job so i can get my much awaited home cinema and studdy :) occasional use
only really, maybe once or twice a week.
That makes it simpler - you can put the tank anywhere then. Although
higher would give better pressure in the rest of the house.
I am trying to keep costs down to a minimum. I dont exacally want to get
someone in to put the floor in for me but people keep telling me how hard it
is. Altho it looks fairly easy to do.
I am just coming to the end of a complete loft conversion myself (3 new
rooms), can't say that the floor was actually that difficult to
implement. It does take a bit of care to get the design right before you
start though. The BCO will want to see a full set of structural loading
calculations to prove the design is OK before you start as well.
Would i be right in saying doubble up on the joists that are already there
so they are twice as thick and then on top of that going the opposite way
putting 3x2 wooden planks the same with appart as the joists so you get a:
++++
++++
++++ (join the gaps up tho)
cross sort of effect? I have seen it done this way at a friends house and
my friend still insists now that they guy that did his didnt even doubble up
on the joist width.
Not sure if what you describe is an "official" solution or not - but is
does sound like in many ways it is overly complicated.

I went for a common solution which was to install new joists completely
independant from the existing joists - hence they run parallel to the
existing joists from load bearing wall to load bearing wall. The new
joists are sat on a 4x1" timber placed on the top of the load bearing
walls, this keeps the underside of them clear of the existing ceilings
in the room below. Otherwise you run the risk that any load you place on
your new floor will flex the ceilings below and damage them. The floor
then sits on the new joists (approx 5" higher than the top of the
original joists (assuming the new joists are 8" deep and the old were 4x2").
 
A

adder

John Rumm said:
I am just coming to the end of a complete loft conversion myself (3 new
rooms), can't say that the floor was actually that difficult to
implement. It does take a bit of care to get the design right before you
start though. The BCO will want to see a full set of structural loading
calculations to prove the design is OK before you start as well.

As I understand it, you can pretty much do whatever you like but if
it's nto upto standard with BCO approval then if you ever try to sell
the house the conversion "won't count" toward the valuation of the
house.
 
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C

Chris

Not sure if what you describe is an "official" solution or not - but is
does sound like in many ways it is overly complicated.

I went for a common solution which was to install new joists completely
independant from the existing joists - hence they run parallel to the
existing joists from load bearing wall to load bearing wall. The new
joists are sat on a 4x1" timber placed on the top of the load bearing
walls, this keeps the underside of them clear of the existing ceilings
in the room below. Otherwise you run the risk that any load you place on
your new floor will flex the ceilings below and damage them. The floor
then sits on the new joists (approx 5" higher than the top of the
original joists (assuming the new joists are 8" deep and the old were
4x2").

You say that you taken them from load bearing wall to load bearing wall??
Would I be right in saying that the load bearing wall is the section that I
have shown in my new image at http://zeon.gotdns.com/loft2.JPG

What makes me think that they are what you mean is that the wood that goes
across sits into the wall at either end, therefore making it nice and secure
to put a load on. am I correct with this?

If so I would be willing to that myself, just one point, if it is how do you
join the new joists to the load bearing wall? is there a special way or not?

Thanks Allot for the help

Chris A
 
L

Lobster

As I understand it, you can pretty much do whatever you like but if
it's nto upto standard with BCO approval then if you ever try to sell
the house the conversion "won't count" toward the valuation of the
house.
Forget "won't count", it's quite likely to devalue the property or at
very least make it harder to sell. Solicitors will advise clients
against buying a property where BCO approval is absent; it could mean
that the property is dangerous (remember that nutter in the press a
few weeks ago who removed most of his roof timbers to build an attic
room?). Similarly, lenders are likely to refuse the prospective buyer
a mortgage.

David
 
J

John Rumm

Chris said:
You say that you taken them from load bearing wall to load bearing wall??
Would I be right in saying that the load bearing wall is the section that I
have shown in my new image at http://zeon.gotdns.com/loft2.JPG
Hard to tell from the picture. All the outside walls are load bearing.
On a new property that was built using pre-fabricated roof trusses,
there may be no other load bearing walls. On most houses with
traditional joinery in the roof, then there is usually at least one wall
in the middle of the house that is also load bearing.

Any joists that will take a floor load will need to have each end
resting on either a load bearing wall or be attached via a shoe/joist
hanger to another joist that is supported.
What makes me think that they are what you mean is that the wood that goes
across sits into the wall at either end, therefore making it nice and secure
to put a load on. am I correct with this?
Sounds like you are describing joists rather than a wall as such. What
is under the joists? To be a load bearing it would need to be a wall
that is present on both ground and first floor. If there was no load
bearing wall in the interior of the property and the spans involved were
too long to cross with a sensible sized beam then you may need to use a
RSJ across the middle to hang shorter joists off.
If so I would be willing to that myself, just one point, if it is how do you
join the new joists to the load bearing wall? is there a special way or not?
Have a look at:-

http://www.internode.co.uk/temp/beam-layout.gif

This diagram, while not totally accurate, gives examples of most of the
permutations!

Beam D for example runs from wall to wall - one external and one
internal, as does beam G. Because we were unsure of the strength of the
lintel over the large bay window in the front, we added beam F. This is
attached to the end of beam E on a joist hanger, and then rawl bolted to
the wall at the other end (the left hand side is the party wall of the
semi). Beam F acts as a "stringer" i.e. all the beams parallel to beam E
to its left are resting on the internal load bearing wall at one end,
but are attached to the stringer via joist hangers at the other.

Beams B and C are like this also. Beam A is attached to other joists via
hangers at both ends.

Where the beams rest on a supporting wall, the wall has a wooden "plate"
that runs the length of the wall on top of it. The beams are simply
"toe" nailed to this to stop them being able to move.
 
P

Peter Taylor

Chris wrote
You say that you taken them from load bearing wall to load bearing wall??
Would I be right in saying that the load bearing wall is the section that I
have shown in my new image at http://zeon.gotdns.com/loft2.JPG
Chris - what you have indicated on the photo are the two timbers called binders,
which are supporting the ceiling joists and stopping them bowing. They have
nothing to do with any loadbearing walls. The binders are supported by vertical
timbers called hangers, bolted to the big timbers under the rafters, which are
called purlins. In other words, the hangers are in tension, not in compression.
The purlins and rafters are supporting the binders and the ceiling joists.

You must not put any additional load on the existing roof timbers. They are
simply not designed for it. They will bow and distort, if not split. And the
result will be damage to the roofing, the ceilings and maybe the external walls.

As I said, the binders have nothing to do with the loadbearing walls, so ignore
them. You are looking for the top of solid brick or block walls under the
ceiling joists. There may or may not be a flat timber along the top of the
wall, called a plate.

Finally, your roof appears to be extremely well designed and constructed.
Please keep it that way!

Peter :eek:)
 
C

Chris

"Peter Taylor"
Chris - what you have indicated on the photo are the two timbers called binders,
which are supporting the ceiling joists and stopping them bowing. They have
nothing to do with any loadbearing walls. The binders are supported by vertical
timbers called hangers, bolted to the big timbers under the rafters, which are
called purlins. In other words, the hangers are in tension, not in compression.
The purlins and rafters are supporting the binders and the ceiling joists.

You must not put any additional load on the existing roof timbers. They are
simply not designed for it. They will bow and distort, if not split. And the
result will be damage to the roofing, the ceilings and maybe the external walls.

As I said, the binders have nothing to do with the loadbearing walls, so ignore
them. You are looking for the top of solid brick or block walls under the
ceiling joists. There may or may not be a flat timber along the top of the
wall, called a plate.

Finally, your roof appears to be extremely well designed and constructed.
Please keep it that way!

Peter :eek:)
Thanks for that reply it has explained allot.
Just to put your mind at rest now - I do not plan to touch any of the roof
construction at all. Don't want to run any risks.

Now after some browsing around I have found this website, and a few of the
images explain what I was talking about in one of the earlier posts.


Images:

http://www.adriansslotcarworld.co.uk/Images/LoftPrep/Insl10.gif
"The plan was to use additional batons to strengthen the existing rafters,
and to make up the depth. The floor boards could then be laid on top.

http://www.adriansslotcarworld.co.uk/Images/LoftPrep/Insl11.gif
75mm being original ceiling joist and the 25mm and 50mm being new additions.

http://www.adriansslotcarworld.co.uk/Images/LoftPrep/Insl04.JPG
The end result

Would this work fine for low usage, we are talking once or twice a week here
and for storing junk.

Doing it this was is not going to run any risks of my house cracking up is
it?

Thanks

Chris A
 
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T

Toby

John said:
Because we were unsure of the strength of
the lintel over the large bay window in the front, we added beam F.
This is attached to the end of beam E on a joist hanger, and then
rawl bolted to the wall at the other end (the left hand side is the
party wall of the semi).
Interesting. Is there a) a hanger on the party wall or b) do the rawlbolts
just go through the middle of the timber chord into the front wall or c)
I've misunderstood something. Considering something along these lines
myself.
 
J

John Rumm

Toby said:
Interesting. Is there a) a hanger on the party wall or b) do the rawlbolts
just go through the middle of the timber chord into the front wall or c)
I've misunderstood something. Considering something along these lines
myself.
Option a. Have a look at:-

http://www.internode.co.uk/temp/shoe.jpg

That shows the shoe (200x100mm - heavy weight - good for 19kN when
bolted) attached to the party wall before the beam was put in place.
Note also that this beam is sightly unusual since it runs perpendicular
to the rest of the existing ceiling joists, and also flys over them so
that they can be left un-cut (handy as they support the bonnet roof that
covers the bay window to the front of the house).
 
J

John Rumm

Chris said:
Now after some browsing around I have found this website, and a few of the
images explain what I was talking about in one of the earlier posts.


Images:

http://www.adriansslotcarworld.co.uk/Images/LoftPrep/Insl10.gif
"The plan was to use additional batons to strengthen the existing rafters,
and to make up the depth. The floor boards could then be laid on top.
It would seem that the original ceiling joists here were only 75mm - if
they cover any span then there is a danger thew will sag and distort
under the weight of just the floor boards - never mind anything placed
on them. Hence thickening the joists should help. The cross beams I
expect were designed to spread any point loads on the floor over several
existing joists rather than allowing it to be concentrated on one
(laying T&G flooring across the thickened joists would have achived much
the same result with less effort).
Would this work fine for low usage, we are talking once or twice a week here
and for storing junk.
For storing junk it should be fine... Although having said that see this:

http://www.internode.co.uk/loft/images/sag.jpg

That was a picture taken along the length of one of the new floor
joists. This is one of the longer ones (approx 4m). Remember also that
at the far end the new beam is resting on a 1" thick plate on the
outside wall and hence the beam should be 1" off the ceiling all the way
along. As you can see it is 1" at the far end - but is as much as 3" or
more in the centre span of the joists. Note that this is a ceiling
constructed with 100mm deep timber in the first place, the section you
are looking at was floorboarded but had very little if anything stored
on it (I tended to store stuff over the load bearing wall in the middle
of the house and toward the edges of the spans of the joists)

Using the loft as a "habitable space" however is a different matter.
Stored items tend to stay put and not move about much (one hopes!)
People on the other do. This poses much more stringent requirements on a
floor than one just used for storage.
Doing it this was is not going to run any risks of my house cracking up is
it?
You are unlikely to cause major structural damage if you don't alter the
structure of the roof or any of the ties etc. The danger you face is
that you will cause damage or sagging to the ceilings (although the
saggging you see in my picture above is not exceptional - and is not
visible from the room below as you eyes would need to be at ceiling
level to see the deviation).

To use the loft as an extra room you need to think about not only the
structural aspects but also the safety ones. What happens in the event
of fire etc? Could the occupants of the space get out quickly if
required? These are the sort of issues that a BCO will be looking at in
addition to the stuctural ones.
 
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T

The Natural Philosopher

Chris said:
Hi all!!

I am just about to have my loft converted.
I have a problem though - right in the middle of where I would like the room
to be there is my cold water tank. (see image) If I was to leave it where
it is this would really be a waste of space which I do not want.
I do not really want the tank taking out or anything I was just wondering if
it is possible that they can be moved... or are they where they are for a
reason. I would like it moving about 6ft to the right of where it is now
next to the wall (see image) as I am going to be boarding that section off
(where the + supports are). I also would like the pipes leading to the tank
re-routeing / lowered so it does not cause problems when they come to put
the floor in.

Does anyone have a rough idea of how much this would cost me and
approximately how long it would take a plumber to do?

Image At http://zeon.gotdns.com/loft.JPG
Upgadred to a tankless system, preferably pressurised hot water system.

Yes, it will cost you a new tank an boiler, but will save time in
bufggering around with existing tanbk.
 

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