Lighting circuit junction boxes


M

MG

My understanding is that concealed junction boxes are not allowed
according to the wiring regulations. Does this extend to lighting
circuits? My DIY book (2001) clearly shows using junctions boxes
under floorboards as an alternative to the loop-in system.

thanks for any help

Martin
 
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S

Steve Jones

Lobster said:
Same regs, but I think the vernacular is not 'concealed' but 'inaccessible'.
How you define that precisely is a moot point, but under floorboards etc is
normally deemed OK, because floorboards can be lifted readily; whereas (eg)
buried invisibly in plaster walls is not.

David
What about behind a kitchen unit? This is accessible but only if I
dismantle half the kitchen to get to it! An accident with a power drill,
frayed tempers and total fustration led me to this bodge.

Steve
 
A

Andrew Gabriel

What about behind a kitchen unit? This is accessible but only if I
dismantle half the kitchen to get to it! An accident with a power drill,
frayed tempers and total fustration led me to this bodge.
My take on 'accessible' is you should be able to access it during
an electrical inspection/test. I would not expect to be pulling
out a fitted kitchen or removing fitted flooring coverings during
an electrical inspection/test, which might happen on a house sale
for example. Others may not agree -- there's no definition of just
how 'accessible' it needs to be.

You can still join cables in inaccessible locations, but you should
crimp or solder the joins. One way is to use a junction box in the
normal way, and then solder the terminals/conductors too -- I've
done this a few times, but unless you're competent with soldering,
crimping is probably better, but you'll need a suitable enclosure.
However, where possible avoid inaccessible cable joins.
 
S

Steve Jones

Andrew said:
My take on 'accessible' is you should be able to access it during
an electrical inspection/test. I would not expect to be pulling
out a fitted kitchen or removing fitted flooring coverings during
an electrical inspection/test, which might happen on a house sale
for example. Others may not agree -- there's no definition of just
how 'accessible' it needs to be.

You can still join cables in inaccessible locations, but you should
crimp or solder the joins. One way is to use a junction box in the
normal way, and then solder the terminals/conductors too -- I've
done this a few times, but unless you're competent with soldering,
crimping is probably better, but you'll need a suitable enclosure.
However, where possible avoid inaccessible cable joins.
I agree Andrew, but as I said it was definitely a bodge! Never done one
yourself?


Steve
 
D

Dave Plowman (News)

My take on 'accessible' is you should be able to access it during
an electrical inspection/test. I would not expect to be pulling
out a fitted kitchen or removing fitted flooring coverings during
an electrical inspection/test, which might happen on a house sale
for example. Others may not agree -- there's no definition of just
how 'accessible' it needs to be.
Hmm. Pretty well any 'replacement' light fitting relies on the loop in
loop out and switch connections being on the 'other' side of the ceiling,
so not readily available for a quick inspection. If this doesn't meet
regs, why are they on sale?
 
S

Steve Jones

Dave said:
Hmm. Pretty well any 'replacement' light fitting relies on the loop in
loop out and switch connections being on the 'other' side of the ceiling,
so not readily available for a quick inspection. If this doesn't meet
regs, why are they on sale?
But can you not simply remove the fitting and get access to all the
connections?
 
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Dave Plowman (News)

But can you not simply remove the fitting and get access to all the
connections?
The only tidy way I've found of doing these sort of fittings is to move
the loop in ceiling rose into the ceiling void and run flex from that to
the fitting. Or use a junction box. A series of choc blocks inside the new
fitting - or pushed up into the hole - fills me with horror.
 
U

usenet

Lobster said:
No, cos typically the single cable to the light fitting comes through the
ceiling via a small (single-cable-sized) hole, and the wiring connections
are all inside a junction box or something similar, above the ceiling
Not typical in the land where I live.

Most lights have a ceiling rose in which all the interconnections are
done, nothing except wires in the void above.
 
G

Googolplex

Andrew said:
My take on 'accessible' is you should be able to access it during
an electrical inspection/test. I would not expect to be pulling
out a fitted kitchen or removing fitted flooring coverings during
an electrical inspection/test, which might happen on a house sale
for example. Others may not agree -- there's no definition of just
how 'accessible' it needs to be.

You can still join cables in inaccessible locations, but you should
crimp or solder the joins. One way is to use a junction box in the
normal way, and then solder the terminals/conductors too -- I've
done this a few times, but unless you're competent with soldering,
crimping is probably better, but you'll need a suitable enclosure.
However, where possible avoid inaccessible cable joins.
I know someone who now has a 13A socket in a most pointless place after
drilling through a cable...

He couldn't see the point of joining the cable inside a socket box and
fitting a blanking plate, "you may as well have a socket there in case
you ever want to use it"
 
G

Googolplex

Dave said:
But can you not simply remove the fitting and get access to all the
connections?

The only tidy way I've found of doing these sort of fittings is to move
the loop in ceiling rose into the ceiling void and run flex from that to
the fitting. Or use a junction box. A series of choc blocks inside the new
fitting - or pushed up into the hole - fills me with horror.
[/QUOTE]

I discovered that modern halogen fittings with integral transformer
often have a very deep fitting. Just enough room to be able to unwire
and remove the old lampholder from the flex from the ceiling rose, wire
this to the terminals on the new fitting, then fix new fitting onto the
ceiling with the old ceiling rose covered up by the fitting itself!

Luckily it was a fairly small low profile rose, most I've seen seem too big!
 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Dave said:
But can you not simply remove the fitting and get access to all the
connections?

The only tidy way I've found of doing these sort of fittings is to move
the loop in ceiling rose into the ceiling void and run flex from that to
the fitting. Or use a junction box. A series of choc blocks inside the new
fitting - or pushed up into the hole - fills me with horror.
[/QUOTE]

I push choco blocks inisde the walls and ceilings.

As long as they are done properly, there is no real alternative to
making a neat connection.

I use junction boxes where I can, but thats not everywhere...

Or crimps inide plaster.
 
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D

Dave Plowman (News)

I discovered that modern halogen fittings with integral transformer
often have a very deep fitting. Just enough room to be able to unwire
and remove the old lampholder from the flex from the ceiling rose, wire
this to the terminals on the new fitting, then fix new fitting onto the
ceiling with the old ceiling rose covered up by the fitting itself!
Luckily it was a fairly small low profile rose, most I've seen seem too
big!
Assuming the fixing screws don't want to go through the ceiling rose?
 
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D

Dave Plowman (News)

I push choco blocks inisde the walls and ceilings.
As long as they are done properly, there is no real alternative to
making a neat connection.
While this is common, it's not to be recommended. There should be two
layers of insulation - hence a JB. Suppose you could use heat shrink
sleeving or tape etc.
I use junction boxes where I can, but thats not everywhere...
Or crimps inide plaster.
Personally, I'd not have any joint inside plaster. I'd replace the entire
cable. But then most of my walls are stud types so easy to wire.
 

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