LED downlighters - 12V or 240V?

[Lobster]

Think I've finally convinced myself that I'm going to swap over from
halogen downlighters to LED ones.

Forgetting for a moment whether downlighters a fundamentally a good idea
or not (for various reasons these are staying, end of!) my question is
whether to go for 12V or 240V ones?

My current halogens are 12V, but AFAICS I'll still still need to replace
the PSUs for some LED-compatible ones. On the plus side, I can re-use
the existing downlighters; they are quite a bit larger than modern ones
(12V or 240V) so replacing them would be something of a ball-ache in
that I'd have to *reduce* the size of the holes in the ceiling.

So, is there any compelling reason to swap to 240V?

Thanks

 

[ARW]

Think I've finally convinced myself that I'm going to swap over from
halogen downlighters to LED ones.

Forgetting for a moment whether downlighters a fundamentally a good
idea or not (for various reasons these are staying, end of!) my
question is whether to go for 12V or 240V ones?

My current halogens are 12V, but AFAICS I'll still still need to
replace the PSUs for some LED-compatible ones. On the plus side, I
can re-use the existing downlighters; they are quite a bit larger
than modern ones (12V or 240V) so replacing them would be something
of a ball-ache in that I'd have to *reduce* the size of the holes in
the ceiling.
So, is there any compelling reason to swap to 240V?

The need not to use a transformer/LED driver is a bonus for the 230V LED
lamps.

All you need is some GU10 lampholders, some GU10 LEDs and to remove the 12V
transformers.

 

[Lobster]

The need not to use a transformer/LED driver is a bonus for the 230V LED
lamps.

All you need is some GU10 lampholders, some GU10 LEDs and to remove the 12V
transformers.

Sure, I get that - but the need to fill in and recreate the holes in the
ceiling really stacks against the need to buy new transformers... what I
was getting at was the pros and cons of the two systems *in practice*,
ie once they are fitted, and up and running...

 

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

My current halogens are 12V, but AFAICS I'll still still need to replace
the PSUs for some LED-compatible ones. On the plus side, I can re-use
the existing downlighters; they are quite a bit larger than modern ones
(12V or 240V) so replacing them would be something of a ball-ache in
that I'd have to *reduce* the size of the holes in the ceiling.

So, is there any compelling reason to swap to 240V?

Not that I can see. Just use 12V with your new PSUs and as time goes
by, the LEDs you get will only improve anyway.
If you decide to go 240V, you'll have to run new cabling, so that
could be an extra pita.

 

[robgraham]

Not that I can see. Just use 12V with your new PSUs and as time goes
by, the LEDs you get will only improve anyway.
If you decide to go 240V, you'll have to run new cabling, so that
could be an extra pita.

One comment i would make which is unrelated to the 12/240v query, is
that LED downlighters do tend to have a narrow beam and less overspill
of light. I did a straight replacement for SES40 bulbs and had to put
in an extra one in my kitchen area to get adequate coverage round the
sink and cooker.

Rob

 

[ARW]

Sure, I get that - but the need to fill in and recreate the holes in
the ceiling really stacks against the need to buy new transformers...
what I was getting at was the pros and cons of the two systems *in
practice*, ie once they are fitted, and up and running...

I thought you were keeping the existing downlights and just changing the
lamps.

 

[ARW]

The 12V ones will be slightly more efficient. LED lights are driven
from a constant current source,

Or a constant voltage source.

 

[Lobster]

I thought you were keeping the existing downlights and just changing the
lamps.

Sorry maybe I waasn't clear then. I'm definitely keeping *downlighters*
as such, ie as a form of lighting (SWMBO has told me so); it's a case of
whether to go to 12V LED (ie which would mean keeping existing
downlighters and just swapping lamps and transformers) or to 240V LED
(meaning swapping lamps and downlighters, plus the ball-ache aspect of
having to form smaller holes in the ceiling). From what I'm reading
there doesn't seem to be any justification for going 240V?

 

[ARW]

Sorry maybe I waasn't clear then. I'm definitely keeping
*downlighters* as such, ie as a form of lighting (SWMBO has told me
so); it's a case of whether to go to 12V LED (ie which would mean
keeping existing downlighters and just swapping lamps and
transformers) or to 240V LED (meaning swapping lamps and
downlighters, plus the ball-ache aspect of having to form smaller
holes in the ceiling). From what I'm reading there doesn't seem to
be any justification for going 240V?

Why does swapping to 230V mean you have to buy new downlighters?

You just replace the transformer with

http://www.wholesaleledlights.co.uk/5-pack-gu10-wire-holder.html

and fit 230V lamps.

Or am I missing something?

 

[ARW]

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

If you decide to go 240V, you'll have to run new cabling, so that
could be an extra pita.

Why would he have to run new cabling? None of the 9000 12V downlights I have
fitted would need new cabling to convert to 230V

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

The need not to use a transformer/LED driver is a bonus for the 230V LED
lamps.

All you need is some GU10 lampholders, some GU10 LEDs and to remove the
12V transformers.

I'm not convinced. LEDs are basically current driven DC devices, and
producing that low(ish) current from 240v within the bulb requires
electronics which ain't going to have much in reserve. Starting out with
low voltage would make them less complex.

 

[Andrew Gabriel]

I'm not convinced. LEDs are basically current driven DC devices, and
producing that low(ish) current from 240v within the bulb requires
electronics which ain't going to have much in reserve. Starting out with
low voltage would make them less complex.

Problem is, you are doing it all at higher current, which potentially
makes for larger losses. I don't know which is better in practice,
but I think there's more choice in the 240V space in terms of
retrofits.

 

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:



Why would he have to run new cabling? None of the 9000 12V downlights I have
fitted would need new cabling to convert to 230V

I mean the cabling from tfrmr to lightheads - all the 12V wiring. Most
of that I've seen I certainly wouldn't trust it on mains.

 

[ARW]

I mean the cabling from tfrmr to lightheads - all the 12V wiring. Most
of that I've seen I certainly wouldn't trust it on mains.

That would not apply to the ones I fitted.

 

[Lobster]

Why does swapping to 230V mean you have to buy new downlighters?

You just replace the transformer with

http://www.wholesaleledlights.co.uk/5-pack-gu10-wire-holder.html

and fit 230V lamps.

Or am I missing something?

No you're not - I am!

Hadn't realised that you could convert 12V ones to 240V ones so easily -
pretty obvious with hindsight I suppose! So that's good - either
option is equally on the table. Still not sure which to go for TBH!

 

[ARW]

No you're not - I am!

Hadn't realised that you could convert 12V ones to 240V ones so
easily - pretty obvious with hindsight I suppose! So that's good -
either option is equally on the table. Still not sure which to go for
TBH!

As I only fit the 230V LEDs (unless it's under cupboard/specialist stuff)
then I can offer no opinion as to which is your best way forward. I just
gave you the option to fit either lamp in your downlights.

 

[ARW]

If you want them dimmable then make sure you fit a dimmable
driver.

Would you like dimmable LED lamps with your order?

 

[ARW]

Or try these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dimmable-LED-Driver-Power-Supply-
Transformer-240V-DC-12V-MR16-MR11-/230940094839

http://tinyurl.com/cqyqsnb

"These drivers should not be used with dimmable led bulbs"

 

[Lobster]

As I only fit the 230V LEDs (unless it's under cupboard/specialist stuff)
then I can offer no opinion as to which is your best way forward. I just
gave you the option to fit either lamp in your downlights.

OK, reckon I'm going for 240V LEDs...

However, I note that almost all these 240V connectors/adapters
(including those in the above link) make no provision for a CPC;
although there are a few around which do so - eg:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261212463223

What's the regs and/or best practice on this issue, given that these are
always exposed metal downlighters? Most of the downlighters sold for
240V use that I can see online don't appear to be earthed.

In my own case, I have particularly low ceilings and can easily change
the downlighter lamps while standing on the floor (ie including the
potentially wet, tiled kitchen floor) - is that what would make a
difference?

Thanks

 

[ARW]

OK, reckon I'm going for 240V LEDs...

However, I note that almost all these 240V connectors/adapters
(including those in the above link) make no provision for a CPC;
although there are a few around which do so - eg:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261212463223

What's the regs and/or best practice on this issue, given that these
are always exposed metal downlighters? Most of the downlighters sold
for 240V use that I can see online don't appear to be earthed.

In my own case, I have particularly low ceilings and can easily change
the downlighter lamps while standing on the floor (ie including the
potentially wet, tiled kitchen floor) - is that what would make a
difference?

It depends on your existing downlights.

Any chance of a couple of photos of your existing lights? And preferably one
that has been removed so I can see the back of it. It may not need an earth.


BTW did you notice that it's 230V not 240V in my replies?