Glue vs. No Glue

Discussion in 'Building Construction' started by Steven, Sep 26, 2003.

  1. Steven

    Steven Guest

    I have a trim carpenter who does excellent work, but I am finding it
    impossible to make him use glue when building my cabinets. All of our
    cabinets are custom built from my layout. I spec all of the materials and
    how I want them fabricated, including gluing all of the pieces together.
    Yesterday, the face frame was loose on a cabinet he was installing, so I
    pulled on it and it came off (not glued, only four finish nails). After a
    very heated argument (he said that if pulled on, it would have come off even
    it was glued) we debated if glue was even necessary. I say it is. He says
    no. I realize I am paying the bill, so what I say goes (or he goes), but am
    I missing something? Is it now an industry standard to rely on smooth
    finish nails to hold cabinets together? What's the opinion of this group?
     
    Steven, Sep 26, 2003
    #1
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  2. Steven

    Bill Guest

    Glue is better, but the thing is that you have given him specific
    instructions to use glue. Tell him again you want glue and if he can't
    manage to do what you say, then you will find someone who WILL do what you
    have specified. Say that you like his work and would prefer to keep him.
    Offer to buy the glue for him if he is too cheap to buy it himself.

    Norm uses glue!


    "Steven" wrote in message
    > I have a trim carpenter who does excellent work, but I am finding it
    > impossible to make him use glue when building my cabinets. All of our
    > cabinets are custom built from my layout. I spec all of the materials

    and
    > how I want them fabricated, including gluing all of the pieces together.
    > Yesterday, the face frame was loose on a cabinet he was installing, so I
    > pulled on it and it came off (not glued, only four finish nails). After

    a
    > very heated argument (he said that if pulled on, it would have come off

    even
    > it was glued) we debated if glue was even necessary. I say it is. He

    says
    > no. I realize I am paying the bill, so what I say goes (or he goes), but

    am
    > I missing something? Is it now an industry standard to rely on smooth
    > finish nails to hold cabinets together? What's the opinion of this group?
    >
     
    Bill, Sep 26, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertisements

  3. - Steven -
    > I have a trim carpenter who does excellent work, but I am finding it
    > impossible to make him use glue when building my cabinets. All of our
    > cabinets are custom built from my layout. I spec all of the materials

    and
    > how I want them fabricated, including gluing all of the pieces

    together.
    > Yesterday, the face frame was loose on a cabinet he was installing, so

    I
    > pulled on it and it came off (not glued, only four finish nails).

    After a
    > very heated argument (he said that if pulled on, it would have come

    off even
    > it was glued) we debated if glue was even necessary. I say it is. He

    says
    > no. I realize I am paying the bill, so what I say goes (or he goes),

    but am
    > I missing something? Is it now an industry standard to rely on smooth
    > finish nails to hold cabinets together? What's the opinion of this

    group?

    - Nehmo -
    In interior applications I've pretty much stopped using finishing nails
    and I've switched to small head square-drive trim screws. I don't
    necessarily use this brand, but here's a pic of some:
    http://trimscrew.com/TRIM-SCREW.htm
    another brand
    http://www.manasquanfasteners.com/Stainless Steel Trim Head Finishing Screws.htm
    I keep one screwgun with a drill bit in it to predrill and another with
    the square-drive bit to do the driving.

    In your particular application of a faceplate on a cabinet, without more
    detail I can't say if I would have used glue or not. But I wouldn't have
    just used finishing nails and if the customer had specified glue, I
    certainly would have used it.

    You can get more replies to your technical question in
    news:rec.woodworking . I crossposted.



    --
    *******************
    * Nehmo Sergheyev *
    *******************
     
    Nehmo Sergheyev, Sep 26, 2003
    #3
  4. Steven

    Mike Hide Guest

    Well I would say the exact opposite, taking the time and effort to glue the
    cabinetry will make it stronger and you will end up in the end with a better
    quality cabinet.....mjh

    --
    mike hide



    "Nehmo Sergheyev" <> wrote in message
    news:HV_cb.64340$-kc.rr.com...
    > - Steven -
    > > I have a trim carpenter who does excellent work, but I am finding it
    > > impossible to make him use glue when building my cabinets. All of our
    > > cabinets are custom built from my layout. I spec all of the materials

    > and
    > > how I want them fabricated, including gluing all of the pieces

    > together.
    > > Yesterday, the face frame was loose on a cabinet he was installing, so

    > I
    > > pulled on it and it came off (not glued, only four finish nails).

    > After a
    > > very heated argument (he said that if pulled on, it would have come

    > off even
    > > it was glued) we debated if glue was even necessary. I say it is. He

    > says
    > > no. I realize I am paying the bill, so what I say goes (or he goes),

    > but am
    > > I missing something? Is it now an industry standard to rely on smooth
    > > finish nails to hold cabinets together? What's the opinion of this

    > group?
    >
    > - Nehmo -
    > In interior applications I've pretty much stopped using finishing nails
    > and I've switched to small head square-drive trim screws. I don't
    > necessarily use this brand, but here's a pic of some:
    > http://trimscrew.com/TRIM-SCREW.htm
    > another brand
    >

    http://www.manasquanfasteners.com/Stainless Steel Trim Head Finishin
    g%20Screws.htm
    > I keep one screwgun with a drill bit in it to predrill and another with
    > the square-drive bit to do the driving.
    >
    > In your particular application of a faceplate on a cabinet, without more
    > detail I can't say if I would have used glue or not. But I wouldn't have
    > just used finishing nails and if the customer had specified glue, I
    > certainly would have used it.
    >
    > You can get more replies to your technical question in
    > news:rec.woodworking . I crossposted.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > *******************
    > * Nehmo Sergheyev *
    > *******************
    >
    >
    >
     
    Mike Hide, Sep 26, 2003
    #4
  5. Steven

    Steven Guest

    Thanks for all of the insight. I just finished a sit down with him (it's
    Friday...payday), and I believe we have come to an understanding. He has
    been gluing the cabinet boxes together, gluing the face frames together
    (along with pocket holes), but nailing the face frames to the cabinets.
    Hopefully only a misunderstanding. After today, he guarantees me that
    EVERYTHING will be glued.
     
    Steven, Sep 26, 2003
    #5
  6. I would go with the glue for a few reasons:

    1. The customer specified it
    2. I don't have to hide the nails
    3. It looks better
    4. It can be stronger

    Unfortunately:
    1. Glue tends to be permanent, repairs are hard or impossible
    2. It requires clamping, which might include nails
    3. It takes a bit of time to apply and cure
    4. If it isn't wiped off properly, the subsequent finish doesn't go on
    right.

    On the balance, I would usually rather use glue than nails for my work, but
    I'm just a weekend woodworker.

    Michael


    "Nehmo Sergheyev" <> wrote in message
    news:HV_cb.64340$-kc.rr.com...
    > - Steven -
    > > I have a trim carpenter who does excellent work, but I am finding it
    > > impossible to make him use glue when building my cabinets. All of our
    > > cabinets are custom built from my layout. I spec all of the materials

    > and
    > > how I want them fabricated, including gluing all of the pieces

    > together.
    > > Yesterday, the face frame was loose on a cabinet he was installing, so

    > I
    > > pulled on it and it came off (not glued, only four finish nails).

    > After a
    > > very heated argument (he said that if pulled on, it would have come

    > off even
    > > it was glued) we debated if glue was even necessary. I say it is. He

    > says
    > > no. I realize I am paying the bill, so what I say goes (or he goes),

    > but am
    > > I missing something? Is it now an industry standard to rely on smooth
    > > finish nails to hold cabinets together? What's the opinion of this

    > group?
    >
    > - Nehmo -
    > In interior applications I've pretty much stopped using finishing nails
    > and I've switched to small head square-drive trim screws. I don't
    > necessarily use this brand, but here's a pic of some:
    > http://trimscrew.com/TRIM-SCREW.htm
    > another brand
    >

    http://www.manasquanfasteners.com/Stainless Steel Trim Head Finishing Screws.htm
    > I keep one screwgun with a drill bit in it to predrill and another with
    > the square-drive bit to do the driving.
    >
    > In your particular application of a faceplate on a cabinet, without more
    > detail I can't say if I would have used glue or not. But I wouldn't have
    > just used finishing nails and if the customer had specified glue, I
    > certainly would have used it.
    >
    > You can get more replies to your technical question in
    > news:rec.woodworking . I crossposted.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > *******************
    > * Nehmo Sergheyev *
    > *******************
    >
    >
    >
     
    Herman Family, Sep 26, 2003
    #6
  7. Steven

    FAMILY Guest

    Steven,

    I typically glue the corners but not the center panel of a door. I sometimes
    use glue (Gorilla Glue works great) in different areas that need a little
    more strength and only finish nails in other areas that just need nails. If
    he doesn't do it your way or doesn't give you a good answer, fire him.

    I don't think the piece would have came off if it were also glued. At least
    according to your description. (My opinion)

    Good Luck,


    Dan


    "Steven" <> wrote in message
    news:DnWcb.26003$...
    > I have a trim carpenter who does excellent work, but I am finding it
    > impossible to make him use glue when building my cabinets. All of our
    > cabinets are custom built from my layout. I spec all of the materials and
    > how I want them fabricated, including gluing all of the pieces together.
    > Yesterday, the face frame was loose on a cabinet he was installing, so I
    > pulled on it and it came off (not glued, only four finish nails). After a
    > very heated argument (he said that if pulled on, it would have come off

    even
    > it was glued) we debated if glue was even necessary. I say it is. He

    says
    > no. I realize I am paying the bill, so what I say goes (or he goes), but

    am
    > I missing something? Is it now an industry standard to rely on smooth
    > finish nails to hold cabinets together? What's the opinion of this group?
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    FAMILY, Sep 26, 2003
    #7
  8. Steven

    JackD Guest


    > Not only should it have glue, but it should also have another form of
    > mechanical fasteners, other than nails. Some like biscits, I prefer dado
    > and rabbits to A) increase glue surface area and B) control dimensions.
    > I've done both. With the dado and rabbits, or biscits, with good

    clamping,
    > no or very few nails are needed.
    > --
    > Jim in NC


    What do you do with the rabbits? With biscuits and rabbits you could have a
    decent meal, but I don't know how the rabbit will help with your cabinets.

    -Jack
     
    JackD, Sep 27, 2003
    #8
  9. Steven

    JackD Guest


    > > What do you do with the rabbits? With biscuits and rabbits you could

    have
    > a
    > > decent meal, but I don't know how the rabbit will help with your

    cabinets.
    > >
    > > -Jack
    > >
    > >

    > LOL!!!
    >
    > I put a dado in the styles, and a rabbit on the side of the cabinet. 1/4"
    > reveal when finished, so put a 3/8" dado starting 5/8" in from the outside
    > edge of the style. 3/8" rabbit on the outside of the side.
    > --
    > Jim in NC
    >


    I think you are talking about rabbets. Not rabbits (hopping furry animals)
    or ribbits (the noise of another hopping animal)..

    -Jack
     
    JackD, Sep 27, 2003
    #9
  10. Steven

    Kotch Guest

    "Nehmo Sergheyev" wrote in message
    > You can get more replies to your technical question in
    > news:rec.woodworking . I crossposted.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > *******************
    > * Nehmo Sergheyev *


    > *******************


    Nehmo, for one to xpost an answer, they've been sniffing to much glue!
    Put the lid back on and clear your nostrils!
     
    Kotch, Sep 27, 2003
    #10
  11. Steven

    Eric Ryder Guest

    Glue (Titebond, etc) up a small faceframe sample for him using no fasteners
    and ask him to tear it apart after curing for a few hours. From my
    experience, endgrain to sidegrain glueup strength in pine exceeds the wood
    strength.

    The new standard seems to be leaning towards pocket screws.


    "Steven" <> wrote in message
    news:DnWcb.26003$...
    > I have a trim carpenter who does excellent work, but I am finding it
    > impossible to make him use glue when building my cabinets. All of our
    > cabinets are custom built from my layout. I spec all of the materials and
    > how I want them fabricated, including gluing all of the pieces together.
    > Yesterday, the face frame was loose on a cabinet he was installing, so I
    > pulled on it and it came off (not glued, only four finish nails). After a
    > very heated argument (he said that if pulled on, it would have come off

    even
    > it was glued) we debated if glue was even necessary. I say it is. He

    says
    > no. I realize I am paying the bill, so what I say goes (or he goes), but

    am
    > I missing something? Is it now an industry standard to rely on smooth
    > finish nails to hold cabinets together? What's the opinion of this group?
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    Eric Ryder, Sep 27, 2003
    #11
  12. "Bill" <> wrote in message
    news:bl1eob$7463h$-berlin.de...
    > Glue is better, but the thing is that you have given him

    specific
    > instructions to use glue. Tell him again you want glue and

    if he can't
    > manage to do what you say, then you will find someone who

    WILL do what you
    > have specified. Say that you like his work and would

    prefer to keep him.
    > Offer to buy the glue for him if he is too cheap to buy it

    himself.
    >
    > Norm uses glue!
    >

    Except on panels in rail and stile doors, etc., where Norm
    lets the panel float.
    Jim

    >
    > "Steven" wrote in message
    > > I have a trim carpenter who does excellent work, but I

    am finding it
    > > impossible to make him use glue when building my

    cabinets. All of our
    > > cabinets are custom built from my layout
     
    james w lazenby, Sep 27, 2003
    #12
  13. "Lawrence A. Ramsey" <> wrote in
    message news:...
    > Uhh, who's Norm?


    Lawrence, don't you mean "Duhh, who's Norm?"

    Jim
    >


    > >
    > >"Bill" <> wrote in message
    > >> Norm uses glue!


    "james w lazenby"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >Except on panels in rail and stile doors, etc., where

    Norm
    > >lets the panel float.
    > >Jim
    > >
     
    james w lazenby, Sep 27, 2003
    #13
  14. Lawrence A. Ramsey wrote:
    > Uhh, who's Norm?


    If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand! :)

    I'm assuming Norm Abrams.


    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Sep 27, 2003
    #14
  15. Steven

    Kotch Guest

    "Rico dJour"wrote in message
    > >
    > >Lawrence A. Ramsey wrote:
    > >> Uhh, who's Norm?

    > >
    > >If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand! :)
    > >
    > >I'm assuming Norm Abrams.

    >
    > I thought it was Norm! from Cheers. He uses the glue to stick his

    butt to the
    > stool so he doesn't fall off.
    >
    > R


    Is that the hot melt type?
     
    Kotch, Sep 28, 2003
    #15
  16. Steven

    Ron Magen Guest

    I am in the process of completing two more Mahogany, Veteran's Flag Cases. I
    am using some Marine Bronze screws as combined fasteners and decorative
    accents.

    Due to the 'proper' size of the screw heads, they are #6 x 1 inch.
    Therefore, I pre-drill and 'chamfer' holes on the mating faces. Then
    carefully 'paint' TiteBond II on the 'inner' edges of the face frame mating
    surfaces . . . Whatever tiny bits of squeeze-out that occurs, are easily
    removed with a scraper before sanding, filling, and varnishing.

    It really doesn't seem like that much more work; just part of the normal
    requirement for a the type of quality you want associated with YOUR name.
    Most of it is simply exhibiting patience while the glue dries over night.

    Either way, the time to properly lay on 6 coats of varnish {with a 24-hour
    'cure' period between coats}, will take more actual *time* than the entire
    building process !!

    Regards,
    Ron Magen
    Backyard Boatshop
     
    Ron Magen, Sep 28, 2003
    #16
  17. Steven

    Steven Guest

    Thanks for the heartfelt concern, Jim. I actually wanted some insight from
    the group before having the sit-down. The way things change in the
    construction industry, it never hurts to hear other opinions before you lay
    down the law. I was 99% sure that I was right, but that might have been the
    "new and improved way" that I was unaware of (even though I still would have
    him glue).

    Once again, thanks for losing sleep for me. I actually have a foundation we
    are excavating, and rain in the forecast. Could you possibly wake up around
    2 a.m. and fret so I can keep sleeping?

    "james w lazenby" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    >
    > "Steven" <> wrote in message
    > news:rB%cb.43680$...
    > > Thanks for all of the insight. I just finished a sit down

    > with him (it's
    > > Friday...payday), and I believe we have come to an

    > understanding. He has
    > > been gluing the cabinet boxes together, gluing the face

    > frames together
    > > (along with pocket holes), but nailing the face frames to

    > the cabinets.
    > > Hopefully only a misunderstanding. After today, he

    > guarantees me that
    > > EVERYTHING will be glued.
    > >

    > After a 57-response thread, and all it took was a sit-down
    > with the cabinet guy! See there, Steven, you got everyone's
    > shorts all in a crack over concern for you, and all the
    > while you had just what it took to take care of the
    > situation . . . on the very first Friday. I, for one, have
    > lost a lot of sleep and am glad it is all over and things
    > came out (or are now guaranteed to come out) all right.
    > But up there in Boston, poor Norm is STILL glued to that bar
    > stool, all alone.
    >
    > Jim
    >
    > (Both Norms are in the Boston area. Understandable why
    > everyone knows your name . . . when it's Norm.)
    >
    > JL
    >
    >
     
    Steven, Sep 29, 2003
    #17
  18. "Steven" <> wrote in message
    news:NmXdb.4227$...
    > Once again, thanks for losing sleep for me. I actually

    have a foundation we
    > are excavating, and rain in the forecast. Could you

    possibly wake up around
    > 2 a.m. and fret so I can keep sleeping?
    >

    Afraid I wouldn't awaken, so I just staid up. I finally
    crashed at about 4:20 AM. Hope that allowed you a couple of
    hours rest and that things go well with the dig. If not,
    and you need more help, I'm always here for you.

    Have a pump handy in the mean time.

    Jim
     
    james w lazenby, Sep 29, 2003
    #18
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