GE/Jasco 55w 2D fluorescent fixture

[JM]

I've bought this GE/Jasco 55w 2D fluorescent fixture. The fixture is not as advertised because the package states "five 60w bulbs" is incorrect. The dome is too thickly frosted to achieve that claimed light output. Whoever designed this fixture must have went by the raw lumen output of the fluorescent tube, and probably never tested the actual fixture with the dome in place. I've contacted GE, but they say "contact Jasco". So I contact Jasco. Either the person responding to my email doesn't understand this, or they don't care. In short, Jasco says: "We can't make the bulb brighter, so just bring it back." ???? So of course I try to explain it to them again, not the BULB but the DOME is the problem. Either make the dome less thickly frosted, and/or at least fix the wattage claim on the box. I like the fixture, except the lower than claimed output is a little disappointing.

 

[Matt (archive)]

Does it put out enough light for you to find your medication?

 

[SQLit]

I've bought this GE/Jasco 55w 2D fluorescent fixture. The fixture is not as advertised because the package states "five 60w bulbs" is incorrect. The dome is too thickly frosted to achieve that claimed light output. Whoever designed this fixture must have went by the raw lumen output of the fluorescent tube, and probably never tested the actual fixture with the dome in place. I've contacted GE, but they say "contact Jasco". So I contact Jasco. Either the person responding to my email doesn't understand this, or they don't care. In short, Jasco says: "We can't make the bulb brighter, so just bring it back." ???? So of course I try to explain it to them again, not the BULB but the DOME is the problem. Either make the dome less thickly frosted, and/or at least fix the wattage claim on the box. I like the fixture, except the lower than claimed output is a little disappointing.

What method of measuring the light output did you use? Eyeball.

Tilting at Windmills was fun when I younger and less informed. Best of luck getting them to change. I have some political issues with the President of the USA I could send you if you need something else to do.

 

[Don Klipstein]

I've bought this GE/Jasco 55w 2D fluorescent fixture. The fixture is not as advertised because the package states "five 60w bulbs" is incorrect. The dome is too thickly frosted to achieve that claimed light output. Whoever designed this fixture must have went by the raw lumen output of the fluorescent tube, and probably never tested the actual fixture with the dome in place. I've contacted GE, but they say "contact Jasco". So I contact Jasco. Either the person responding to my email doesn't understand this, or they don't care. In short, Jasco says: "We can't make the bulb brighter, so just bring it back." ???? So of course I try to explain it to them again, not the BULB but the DOME is the problem. Either make the dome less thickly frosted, and/or at least fix the wattage claim on the box. I like the fixture, except the lower than claimed output is a little disappointing.

This is a common complaint of compact fluorescents.

I would take light output claims exceeding that of known available incandescnts (including incandeascents with rated life as low as 750 hours) of as low as 2.5 times the claimed power consumption with skepticism in addition to at least a grain of salt, and claims of producing more light than an incandescent of about 3.5-4 times the claimed power consumption with at best "hostile skepticism".

Producing same light as an incandescent of 1/4 the claimed power consumption is easier, due to a few various "economies of scale" that favor higher efficiency of higher wattage lightbulbs. However, even good brand/model compact fluorescents in good conditions only produce about as much light as better incandescents of 4 times their nominal wattage. For example, I have found the best 13-15 watt compact fluorescents generally to fail to significantly outshine the brightest 120V 60 watt incandescents, and I have found them more noted to fall short of "60 watt incandescent equivalence" than to exceed such. You may sometimes need a compact fluorescent of wattage in the 18-20 watt range to produce as much effectively usable light as a 60 watt incandescent, and in more extreme adverse cases require 23-25 watts of compact fluorescent wattage to get you as much useful light as a 60 watt incandeascent.

And beware - recessed ceiling fixtures are a bad case, harder on "screw-in" (ballast-included-in-"bulb") compact fluorescents of wattage more than 20 watts, and ones as low as 15 watts get to claim something special about being rated to survive the heat endured in recessewd ceiling fixtures. (HINT: Compact fluorescents do not produce much infrared, produce more non-radiant heat [materializing in the fixture as opposed to elsewhere in the room] than incandescents of same wattage, heat up fixtures as much as incandescents of about 1.5 or more times as much wattage, and tolerate high tem,peratures less than incandescents do!)

Not only do ceiling fixtures, especially recessed ones, as well as small enloclosed fixtures compromise the life of many compact fluorescents and most of ones of wattage over about 13-15 watts and probably nearly all of wattage over 20 watts, this can compromise light output, color of the emitted light, and color rendering properties of the emitted light.

In a somewhat bad case, I have seen an installation (visiting many dozens of times night and day) of apparently 13 watt quadtube units in recessed ceiling downlights where the light output of each I have never estimated to significantly exceed that available from 40 watt "standard" incandescents.

I do encourage usage of compact fluorescents, but I do warn that they have some "pitfalls"!

- Don Klipstein (, http://www.misty.com/~don/cfx.html)

 

[Don Klipstein]

in part:

And beware - recessed ceiling fixtures are a bad case, harder on "screw-in" (ballast-included-in-"bulb") compact fluorescents of wattage more than 20 watts, and ones as low as 15 watts get to claim something special about being rated to survive the heat endured in recessewd ceiling fixtures.

I have seen "in my experience" that compact fluorescent recessed ceiling "downlights" in commercial buildings tend to use lamps ("bulbs) that do not have built-in ballasts, as in the "bulbs" are not screw-in type and that the necessary ballasts are separate from the "bulbs", presumably at least somewhat removed from the heat produced by the lamps/"bulbs".

- Don Klipstein

 

[Victor Roberts]

I've bought this GE/Jasco 55w 2D fluorescent fixture. The fixture is not as advertised because the package states "five 60w bulbs" is incorrect. The dome is too thickly frosted to achieve that claimed light output. Whoever designed this fixture must have went by the raw lumen output of the fluorescent tube, and probably never tested the actual fixture with the dome in place. I've contacted GE, but they say "contact Jasco". So I contact Jasco. Either the person responding to my email doesn't understand this, or they don't care. In short, Jasco says: "We can't make the bulb brighter, so just bring it back." ???? So of course I try to explain it to them again, not the BULB but the DOME is the problem. Either make the dome less thickly frosted, and/or at least fix the wattage claim on the box. I like the fixture, except the lower than claimed output is a little disappointing.

Not only can't Jasco make the lamp (what you call the bulb) brighter, but they are not going to make a new dome just for you. If you don't like the fixture your only option is to bring it back.

Now, let's take a look at the fixture manufacturers claims.

The GE 55-watt 2D lamp is rated at 4000 lumens after 100 hours (Initial Lumens) and 3400 Mean Lumens (that is after 40% of rated life.)

The light output of 120-volt 60-watt incandescent lamps vary with design life, type of diffusing coating, and a few other factors . I would say that the GE Model 60A, which is a 120-volt, 60-watt, 1000-hour, A-19 lamp with conventional diffusing coating (not Soft White) is a good example of a "standard" incandescent lamp. This lamp is rated by GE for 856 initial lumens.

So, based on initial bare lamp lumens only, the 55-watt 2D would be equivalent to 4.62 of these 60-watt incandescent lamps. However, based on mean lumens, the 55-watt 2D is equivalent to only 3.93 of these 60-watt incandescent lamps. (Your evaluation took place with a new 55-watt 2D lamp, so the mean lumen issue is not relevant to your problem.)

But as you have stated, bare lamp lumens are not the whole story. The fixture must be designed to get the light produced from the lamps out of the fixture and on to the work surface. This involves not only the diffuser (dome) but also the reflector. I agree with your conclusion that the manufacturer's claim is based on the light produced by the 55-watt 2D lamp, with a bit of exaggeration thrown in, and not the light out of the fixture.

 

[Guest]

You might compare the bulb to a 60 W bulb using Bunsen's 1844 "grease spot photometer"... move a 1" grease spot on a piece of white paper between the bulbs until the spot disappears, which indicates the intensities are the same at the card. The bulb brightness ratio is the square of the ratio of the distance from the card to each bulb...

Nick

 

[Victor Roberts]

You might compare the bulb to a 60 W bulb using Bunsen's 1844 "grease spot photometer"... move a 1" grease spot on a piece of white paper between the bulbs until the spot disappears, which indicates the intensities are the same at the card. The bulb brightness ratio is the square of the ratio of the distance from the card to each bulb...

Nick

We are interested in lumens not brightness. And, since the size and shape of the lamps in question are very different, we need to use an instrument more sophisticated than a grease spot photometer. In this case an integrating sphere or a goniometer will give lumen output independent of shape..

 

[Matt (archive)]

Actually, we don't give a ****.

In the past, we have always found that when we bought a light fixture that didn't turn out to be what we thought, we took it back to the store.

We most cetainly did not call the manufacturer(s) like some sort of psycho nutjob, demanding that they put some lumens in a box and ship them to us.

 

[Bob Ward]

We are interested in lumens not brightness. And, since the size and shape of the lamps in question are very different, we need to use an instrument more sophisticated than a grease spot photometer. In this case an integrating sphere or a goniometer will give lumen output independent of shape..

Tell me again - why are we interested in lumens, not brightness?

 

[Guest]

We are interested in lumens not brightness. And, since the size and shape of the lamps in question are very different, we need to use an instrument more sophisticated than a grease spot photometer. In this case an integrating sphere or a goniometer will give lumen output independent of shape..

Perhaps the size and shape don't matter much, if the bulbs (vs fixtures) are far away from the spot. For non-isotropy (if any), we might put each in a 5-sided box (a sphere lined with foil with the open sides aimed at the spot.

What's a goniometer? Sounds potentially painful.

Nick

 

[Victor Roberts]

Perhaps the size and shape don't matter much, if the bulbs (vs fixtures) are far away from the spot. For non-isotropy (if any), we might put each in a 5-sided box (a sphere lined with foil with the open sides aimed at the spot.

I agree that if you are far enough away that both sources can be approximated by point sources and a grease spot photometer might work, except for the fact that the output of the 2D has a significant directional component due to the fact that the lamp is almost flat. You pseudo-sphere sounds like a good idea

What's a goniometer? Sounds potentially painful.

Only painful if you are standing in the wrong place when it is operating?

I should have used the term gonio-photometer since "goniometer" is a more general term that applies to objects that can be rotated around all three axis, but sometimes to objects that only rotate around one axis, such as a variable angle protractor.

The lighting industry uses the shorthand term "goniometer" to refer to a gonio-photometer. I have argued in this forum against using well-defined words incorrectly, so I will refrain from using goniometer to refer to a gonio-photometer from now on.

A gonio-photometer is a detector on an arm of fixed length that can move completely around a light source. The gonio-photometer is installed in a room with flat black walls so there is no reflected light, only the direct light from the lamp or luminaire, depending upon what you are measuring. The detector mounted on the end of the arm collects light from the source falling on a virtual sphere surrounding the source and therefore gives lumens when the data is processed. You also get the light distribution at the same time.

For an example of a gonio-photometer you can see:

http://eetd.lbl.gov/BTP/lsr/l_facilities_gonio.html

This version uses a mirror on the arm to reflect light to a fixed sensor, and mounts the source on a rotating table so the arm only moves in a 180 deg arc, but the concept is the same.

 

[Jeff Wisnia]

I've bought this GE/Jasco 55w 2D fluorescent fixture. The fixture is not as advertised because the package states "five 60w bulbs" is incorrect. The dome is too thickly frosted to achieve that claimed light output. Whoever designed this fixture must have went by the raw lumen output of the fluorescent tube, and probably never tested the actual fixture with the dome in place. I've contacted GE, but they say "contact Jasco". So I contact Jasco. Either the person responding to my email doesn't understand this, or they don't care. In short, Jasco says: "We can't make the bulb brighter, so just bring it back." ???? So of course I try to explain it to them again, not the BULB but the DOME is the problem. Either make the dome less thickly frosted, and/or at least fix the wattage claim on the box. I like the fixture, except the lower than claimed output is a little disappointing.

Please give my warmest regards to your associate Sancho Panza.

Jeff

 

[JM]

quoting:

psycho nutjob, demanding that they put some lumens in a box and ship them to us.

Where is the demand? This is why implied advertising works so well on people like you. They say one thing, and and it's taken as another.

 

[JM]

quoting:

Not only can't Jasco make the lamp (what you call the bulb) brighter, but they are not going to make a new dome just for you. If you don't like the fixture your only option is to bring it back.

No, I didn't say that. I'm looking for general changes, that's all. But judging from Jasco's responses, they don't care. For some of you trolls from misc.consumers bringing it back isn't going to do squat. Jasco doesn't care. They aren't going to change a thing. What would it take for them to change:
federal intervention? Millions of returns? Unfortunatly, that's the way the world is run today. Money comes first.

Now, let's take a look at the fixture manufacturers claims.

The GE 55-watt 2D lamp is rated at 4000 lumens after 100 hours (Initial Lumens) and 3400 Mean Lumens (that is after 40% of rated life.)

The light output of 120-volt 60-watt incandescent lamps vary with design life, type of diffusing coating, and a few other factors . I would say that the GE Model 60A, which is a 120-volt, 60-watt, 1000-hour, A-19 lamp with conventional diffusing coating (not Soft White) is a good example of a "standard" incandescent lamp. This lamp is rated by GE for 856 initial lumens.

So, based on initial bare lamp lumens only, the 55-watt 2D would be equivalent to 4.62 of these 60-watt incandescent lamps. However, based on mean lumens, the 55-watt 2D is equivalent to only 3.93 of these 60-watt incandescent lamps. (Your evaluation took place with a new 55-watt 2D lamp, so the mean lumen issue is not relevant to your problem.)

But as you have stated, bare lamp lumens are not the whole story. The fixture must be designed to get the light produced from the lamps out of the fixture and on to the work surface. This involves not only the diffuser (dome) but also the reflector. I agree with your conclusion that the manufacturer's claim is based on the light produced by the 55-watt 2D lamp, with a bit of exaggeration thrown in, and not the light out of the fixture.

Thank you.

 

[Bob Ward]

quoting:

No, I didn't say that. I'm looking for general changes, that's all. But judging from Jasco's responses, they don't care. For some of you trolls from misc.consumers bringing it back isn't going to do squat. Jasco doesn't care. They aren't going to change a thing. What would it take for them to change:
federal intervention? Millions of returns? Unfortunatly, that's the way the world is run today. Money comes first.

As it should. If you are unhappy with their product and they refund your money, they are not obligated to do anything more.