Envirosept Furnace Filter

himilecyclist

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I am in the process of adding central air to an existing furnace system. The system currently includes a Honeywell electronic air cleaner made in 1976. As part of the addition, I am considering replacing the old Honeywell with an Envirosept Electronic Furnace Filter, which sounds pretty good just from browsing the Net.

My question is, would this new unit be much more effective (or less effective) than the old one? I know the old one is working to some extent, since I can see the dirt come off when it gets cleaned.

Any advice greatly appreciated!
 

Stretch

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Media air filters typically filter the air better than standard fiberglass filters. However they have much more resistance to air flow than standard air filters. Typically, they reduce measured overall air flow by 10% to 20%. If you add an AC coil to your existing furnace, you will be reducing air flow some with it. The electronic air filters usually have low resistance to air flow, I would stick with the existing electronic filter. Electronic filters are usually more effiient than media filters as well.

Remember: Air Conditioning begins with AIR!

Stretch
 
G

Guest

Stretch said:
Electronic filters are usually more effiient than media filters as well.
This charged media filter is more efficient...

Typical Ambient Particle
Size distribution (in microns) per m^3 Particle Removal Rates

% by % by Electrostatic Envirosept
Size (um.) Count count weight ($800-1200) ($200)

10+ 1,000 .005% 28% xxx x 99% 99+% 5-10 35,000 .175% 52% x x 95% 99+% 1-5 264,000 1.32% 17% x x 85% 99+% ..5-1 1,352,000 6.78% 2% xxx 60% 90+% ..01-.5 18,280,000 91.72% 1% xxx 40% 65%

|||||_ bacteria/viruses/spores
||||_ cooking/tobacco smoke
|||_ household dust
||_ pollen/mold/spores
|_ dander/hair

Average synthetic dust weight arrestance: 79%

Single pass efficiency: 33% @0.3 um, 75% @0.5 um, 95% @1 um, 99% @3 um

Pressure drop: 0.05" @150 lfm, 0.1" @225 lfm, 0.15" @300 lfm, 0.22" @375 lfm

ASHRAE dust holding capacity: 20 gm/ft^2

Does not produce ozone

Nick
 

Stretch

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Nick,
From what I understand from their website, the Envirosept uses a power
supply and media, therefore produces o-zone as well high resistance media. The electrostatic filters typically used arrestance test for efficiency, which has a large particle size dust for testing.

The media filters typically use dust spot test as opposed to arrestance test used by electrostatic filters. A 95% arrestance rating on an electrostatic filter is about the same as a 15 to 20% atmospheric dust spot test. The tests are completely different, therefore no direct co-relation.

Electrostatic filters don't work well below about 300 Feet per minute air velocity, because they don't develope a charge below that air speed. Therefore their high resistance to air flow is their own enemy. If you oversize electrostatic filters to reduce resistance to air flow, the velocity drops below the 300 FPM threshold and they loose effectiveness.

The combination filters like Envirosept and Dynamic are the worst of both worlfs. They have media which has high resistance to air flow needs and replaced periodically $$$, and they produce ozone. Nick, you should get a flow hood and a differential pressure gauge and test the results before you recommend them to anyone. The saving grace of the Envirosept is it seems to be a better than average filter, if you have a powerful enough blower to overcome their high resistance to air flow. As an option, put two filter grilles side by side, due to the fan laws, since the velocity is 1/2, the pressure drop will be only 1/4 (the square of the change). Then the Envirosept becomes a more interesting concept.

Just remember, if you use a high resistance/efficiency filter, your air will be cleaner, but with reduced air flow your AC may not work well and your efficiency will be reduced. (Unless you have a high powered blower or oversized filter.)

Nick, half of the systems that I measure have air flow of 200 CFM/ ton instead of the 400 CFM/ton they should have. Hence my dislike of high efficiency/high resistance filters that reduce air flow another 10% to20%.

Stretch
 
G

Guest

Stretch said:
...the Envirosept uses a power supply and media,
Yes. Less than 2 watts at 7 kV...
therefore produces o-zone as well high resistance media.
It does not produce ozone. I'm not sure what you mean by the rest.
The electrostatic filters typically used arrestance test for efficiency, which has a large particle size dust for testing.
Here's a basic comparison. "Electrostatic" below means Honeywell types with fine wires with a high voltage and no charged media:

Typical Ambient Particle
Size distribution (in microns) per m^3 Particle Removal Rates

% by % by Electrostatic ESSA
Size (um.) Count count weight ($800-1200) ($200)

10+ 1,000 .005% 28% xxx x 99% 99+% 5-10 35,000 .175% 52% x x 95% 99+% 1-5 264,000 1.32% 17% x x 85% 99+% ..5-1 1,352,000 6.78% 2% xxx 60% 90+% ..01-.5 18,280,000 91.72% 1% xxx 40% 65%

|||||_ bacteria/viruses/spores
||||_ cooking/tobacco smoke
|||_ household dust
||_ pollen/mold/spores
|_ dander/hair

Average synthetic dust weight arrestance: 79%

Single pass efficiency: 33% @0.3 um, 75% @0.5 um, 95% @1 um, 99% @3 um

Pressure drop: 0.05" @150 lfm, 0.1" @225 lfm, 0.15" @300 lfm, 0.22" @375 lfm

ASHRAE dust holding capacity: 20 gm/ft^2
The media filters typically use dust spot test as opposed to arrestance test used by electrostatic filters.
I think we are comparing apples to apples above.
Electrostatic filters don't work well below about 300 Feet per minute air velocity, because they don't develope a charge below that air speed.
I think those "electrostatic filters" are different animals, with no power supplies. The expensive Honeywell types above work better with lower flow rates and longer residence times.
The combination filters like Envirosept and Dynamic are the worst of both worlfs. They have media which has high resistance to air flow needs and replaced periodically $$$, and they produce ozone.
The Envirosept doesn't. IIRC, the filters cost about $1. I wish they made a washable filter. That would be a better worlf.
...you should get a flow hood and a differential pressure gauge and test the results before you recommend them to anyone.
Again, here's the Envirosept spec:

Pressure drop: 0.05" @150 lfm, 0.1" @225 lfm, 0.15" @300 lfm, 0.22" @375 lfm

It's designed to slip into the same space as a passive filter. How do these pressure drops compare to passive filters and typical duct pressure losses?
As an option, put two filter grilles side by side, due to the fan laws, since the velocity is 1/2, the pressure drop will be only 1/4 (the square of the change). Then the Envirosept becomes a more interesting concept.
From the spec above, the fan laws may fit fans better than filters. For instance, 300 lfm is 2X 150, but dP = 3 vs 4X.

And maybe most blowers can handle higher pressures, or the duct and register losses are a lot larger than filter losses, so the filter loss doesn't matter much. I know Envirosept's father Mike Putro, who is one smart cookie, and honest as well. He's been selling these filters for about 10 years. A larger housing might be difficult to make, as well as unnecessary.
...half of the systems that I measure have air flow of 200 CFM/ ton instead of the 400 CFM/ton they should have. Hence my dislike of high efficiency/high resistance filters that reduce air flow another 10% to 20%.
Which bodily orifice produced your 10-20%? :) IMO, most modern ACs cool too much and dehum too little, wasting too much electrical energy in the blower and too much heat energy through the walls. A fountain or mister or perspiring human can help distribute coolth to occupied rooms more dynamically, with less heat gain from the outdoors...

Nick
 

PaPaPeng

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My question is, would this new unit be much more effective (or less effective) than the old one? I know the old one is working to some extent, since I can see the dirt come off when it gets cleaned.
For what its worth, after nixing an electronic filter on account of cost, and "sticky" treated filters on account of cost and reduced airflow, my solution is to spray a light coat of cooking oil on the cheapie regular fiberglass filter. My theory is that the oil will retain dust particles better than a plain filter. I get to change the filters more often and thus remove the dust permanent instead of letting it be blown back into the ducts and air. I only did this last month when the weather no longer required the furnace to run. I should know when the weather gets cold again whether there is any problem having cooking oil on the filter for an extended period and whetehr it picks up dust and better.
 

Stretch

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PaPaPeng,

The fiberglass filters come from the factory with a coating already on the filters. They are called viscous impingement filters. Spraying them with oils not necessary, but will not hurt.

Stretch
 

Stretch

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Nick,

Some clarifications, using industry standard nomenclature, So that we are speaking the same language:

"Here's a basic comparison. "Electrostatic" below means Honeywell types with fine wires with a high voltage and no charged media:"

Nick,
The filters that use electricity to charge plates or media are normally called ELECTRONIC AIR FILTERS in the trade. While they don't use much electricity, the power output is usually several thousand to as high as ten thousand volts. It is the high voltage (low current) that produces ozone, due to corona discharge effects. The higher the voltage, the more ozone is produced. Many such filters have ozone reduction options that reduce the output voltage to reduce ozone generation. This also reduces their effectiveness and cleaning power. The ELECTRONIC air cleaners have very low resistance to air flow. If you want a high efficiency air filter, this is the way to go.

ELECTROSTATIC FILTERS are those that use the high velocity of air to put a static charge on plastic media, much like rubbing your shoes on a rug as you walk across a floor. They usually use a couple of different plastics to enhance the effect. ELECTROSTATIC air filters have no power supplies.

The envirosept does not fit neatly into either category, as far as I can see.

Nick, a 20 x 20 fiberglass filter at 800 CFM has a pressure drop of ..08"WG. The net opening of that filter is 18" x 18", or 2.25 Sq. Ft.. 800 CFM/2.25 Sq. Ft. = 355 linear feet per minute (FPM). Compare this to the Envirosept pressure drop of .22" at 375 FPM. At very close velocities, the Envirosept filter has a pressure drop of just under 3 times that of the fiberglass filter.

The fan laws apply to fans, duct systems and coils. I have also found it to be very close with air filters that I have tested. Nick, I test air flow with a flow hood, a hot wire annemometer and a digital differential pressure gauge. I have been using a flow hood for 17 years. I have been using the other instruments almost as long. I am not pulling these numbers out of any body oriface as you suggest. (Have you been hanging around alt.hvac.group too much?? That kind of language does not belong in an intelligent conversation.)

As to AC systems cooling too much and dehumidifying too little, I agree there. Paying attention to load calculations and proper air flow would help tremendously. Most AC systems dehumidify best at air flows of 350 to 400 Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM) per ton. If systems deliver proper air flow, there would be much less need to oversize them as most contractors do. If the duct systems matched the equipment better, instead of being undersized, there would be more blower capacity for high efficiency filters.

Because so many people now purchase pleated media filters at the home centers, I recommend Variable Speed (VS) blowers when I sell replacement systems. Variable Speed blowers are more efficient than standard blowers. Typically, the SEER goes up at least 1 (12 SEER increases to 13 SEER) when changing from a standard to a VS blower. Also, while most standard blowers will produce rated air flow with a coil installed at .3 to.5 inches water column external static pressure, a VS blower will produce rated air flow at .8 to 1.0 inches water column external static pressure. In addition, the VS blower will speed up as the filter loads up, producing nearly the same air flow at different filter pressure drops. I have measured this in the field, it is not just some marketing balony from manufacturers.

I don't dispute that the Envirosept does a MUCH BETTER job of cleaning the air. My problem with it, and other similiar products is that significantly reduced air flow adversly affects performance of heating and cooling systems already installed and designed to work with standard air filters. That is if any design work was done on them at all.

Just remember that whole house AC systems are a SYSTEM. Anything you do to one part of the system affects the rest of the system.

By the way, I would not recomment using a "mister" or swamp cooler here in South Carolina. Your customer would probably come to blows with you over that. It might work wellin your climate up in Mass though. Remember that this group goes to people all over, what works in your climate may not work in other climates.

By the way #2: What the heck is coolth??

Respectfully yours,

Stretch
 

Noon-Air

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My 2 cents worth....
Electronic filters work well if they are properly maintained. Electrostatic filters are not very efficient and cause too much restriction in the airflow and are unsanitary. Fiberglass disposables are worthless 3M Ultra Allergen filters create too much restriction in the airflow and are very expen$ive A good quality pleated filter with a MERV rating of between 8 and 11 will get all the nasty particulates out of the air, and not break the bank. Keep in mind that reguardless of what the label says, (good for up to 3 months), I recommend that they be changed every month. When you write the check for your light bill, use that as a reminder to change the filter....clean filter = better efficiency = lower bills.
 
G

Guest

Stretch said:
Some clarifications, using industry standard nomenclature, So that we are speaking the same language:
Good. The first 3 rules of philosophy are "clarify, clarify, clarify."
"Here's a basic comparison. "Electrostatic" below means Honeywell types with fine wires with a high voltage and no charged media:"

The filters that use electricity to charge plates or media are normally called ELECTRONIC AIR FILTERS in the trade.
I also think "electrostatic precipitator."
While they don't use much electricity, the power output is usually several thousand to as high as ten thousand volts.
Maybe higher. I built one years ago with a 1B3 and a TV flyback transformer.
...The ELECTRONIC air cleaners have very low resistance to air flow. If you want a high efficiency air filter, this is the way to go.
Except for the price, cleaning task, zappy noises, and ozone... I'm not sure they all produce ozone. The Ionic Breeze doesn't, altho it puts all the dirt on the walls of the room :) I put one inside a 12" grounded stovepipe with a light bulb below to make some airflow, and it worked as an electrostatic precipitator.
...a 20 x 20 fiberglass filter at 800 CFM has a pressure drop of .08"WG.
OK.

The net opening of that filter is 18" x 18", or 2.25 Sq. Ft... 800 CFM/2.25 Sq. Ft. = 355 linear feet per minute (FPM). Compare this to the Envirosept pressure drop of .22" at 375 FPM. At very close velocities, the Envirosept filter has a pressure drop of just under 3 times that of the fiberglass filter.
I wonder how important that is, given some blower overcapacity and the rest of the pressure losses in the duct/register/plenum system.
What's a typical total?

Grainger's 5C092 direct drive furnace blower (with a 9.5" 1075 rpm wheel and a 1/4 HP motor) is rated 1529 cfm at 0.3" sp, 1517 at 0.4, 1483 at 0.5, 1416 at 0.6, 1326 at 0.7, 926 at 0.8, and 397 at 0.9. Adding 0.22-0.08 = 0.14" wouldn't make much difference over the low part of that range.
The fan laws apply to fans, duct systems and coils. I have also found it to be very close with air filters that I have tested.
Not the Envirosept, with 3X vs the fan-law 4X pressure drop at 2X flow. We also need to consider the operating point on the blower curve, IMO.
I am not pulling these numbers out of any body oriface as you suggest.
They don't seem unreasonable. If the blower above is working in the middle of its range at 0.6" and 1416 cfm and we add 0.14", the output might drop to 1326-(0.74-0.7)/0.1(1326-926) = 1166 vs 1416 cfm... 18% less.
As to AC systems cooling too much and dehumidifying too little, I agree there. Paying attention to load calculations and proper air flow would help tremendously. Most AC systems dehumidify best at air flows of 350 to 400 Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM) per ton.
Seems to me they could dehumidify better and better at lower velocities.
...the VS blower will speed up as the filter loads up, producing nearly the same air flow at different filter pressure drops.
Sounds like a fix for the Perils of Pressure Drop.
...I would not recomment using a "mister"... here in South Carolina.
I might, in conjuction with a low-flow AC that mainly dehumidifies. You might think of this as an alternative to variable air volume, or "dynamic balancing," with less blower power and duct and house heat losses. Why cool a room if nobody's in it? A little misting can lower the air temp in an occupied room while the rest of the house air is warmer and drier, with less coolth moving out through the walls.
It might work wellin your climate up in Mass though.
I'm near Phila. We only need home AC for 1-2 weeks per year mostly in our tropical August climate when night temps and RHs stay over 70 F and 70%. Even then, ceiling fans are a good alternative.
By the way #2: What the heck is coolth??
The opposite of heat. It's equally ambiguous, since it can mean a flow (heat power in Btu/h) or a quantity of energy (stored heat in Btu). Coolth flows from cooler to warmer objects. Google shows lots of use.

Nick
 
G

Guest

Something Nick invented, along with his various .... ummmm.... 'unusual'....... ideas of phsyics.
It's very advanced. I didn't invent it until after taking high school physics, college physics, statics, dynamics, materials science, electromagnetics, quantum mechanics, and solid state physics.

But I couldn't have done it alone. It was really a team effort. My entire staff deserves praise.

Nick
 
G

Guest

Stretch said:
As to AC systems cooling too much and dehumidifying too little, I agree there. Paying attention to load calculations and proper air flow would help tremendously. Most AC systems dehumidify best at air flows of 350 to 400 Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM) per ton.
If it's 90 F outdoors with w = 0.012 and 80 F with w = 0.012 indoors and we move 400x60xrho = 2400Rho pounds per hour of air into a room with 0.24 Btu/lb of specific heat and 2400Rhox0.24(80-T) = 12K Btu/h and Rho = 39.38/(460+T) lb/ft^3, T = 53.9 F, with HVAC business as usual.
I might, in conjuction with a low-flow AC that mainly dehumidifies. You might think of this as an alternative to variable air volume, or "dynamic balancing," with less blower power and duct and house heat losses. Why cool a room if nobody's in it?
If we move C cfm of 40 F saturated air with ws = 0.005216 into a room and mist a pound to wr = 0.012, that makes 1000(wr-ws) = 6.78 Btu of coolth. Raising a pound makes 0.24(80-40) = 9.6 Btu. The total is 16.38, and 40 F air weighs 0.07876 lb/ft^3, so 60Cx0.07876x16.38 = 12K Btu/h makes C = 155 vs 400 cfm, with smaller ducts or (400/155)^3 = 17 times less blower power, and...
A little misting can lower the air temp in an occupied room while the rest of the house air is warmer and drier, with less coolth moving out through the walls.
Nick
 

Stretch

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Nick

define your terms!

What is coolth?

What is xrho? Or is that x rho?

Please put spaces around your =, +, /, * (operators) Your posts are hard to read and you need to define your terms. Example: I use grains, you use decimal fractions, eg 0.012 vs 84 grains. It would be easier to understand you if you use standard terms and defined what is not standard. For the sake of other people, please define everything.

Stretch
 

pjm

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Nick

define your terms!

What is coolth?
And when exactly did it learn to walk through walls ??? :)
not standard. For the sake of other people, please define everything.
Welcome to NickLand, Stretch, where 'the old concepts of reality' just don't quite apply any more' :)

Click every day here to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
 
G

Guest

Stretch said:
Hiya Stretch,
define your terms!
OK.

What is coolth?
Btu/h of cooling.
What is xrho? Or is that x rho?
x means times, Rho is a density.
Please put spaces around your =, +, /, * (operators)
You might consider mentally adding such spaces as you require.
...I use grains, you use decimal fractions, eg 0.012 vs 84 grains.
w = 0.012 is a humidity ratio, eg pounds of water per pound of dry air.

Nick
 

PaPaPeng

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The fiberglass filters come from the factory with a coating already on the filters. They are called viscous impingement filters. Spraying them with oils not necessary, but will not hurt.

Stretch
My concern is when I change the regular furnace filter the dust on it is dry, loose and easily blown back into the ducts. But if there is an oil stain anywhere in the house the dust particles get stuck on the oil stain. Hopefully the dust particles will stick better to an oil coated furnace filter.

An idea that just came to mind is to have a small heated oil reservoir infront of the filter element. The concept is everytime the furnace fires up the heater element will be switched on to vaporize a little oil and deposit a fresh sticky coat. The vapor will be deposited onto the filter by the air drawn into the furnace.

Cooking oil deposits inside the ducting is likely a health and maintenance concern. But what about aromatic oils meant for household use, as in those wall plug-in gizmos? In fact it is easy enough to install several of these vaporizers in the cold air return plenum and tie that to the furnace ON circuit. The vapor may do a double duty of helping to attract dust onto the filter element first before doing its original purpose to make the rooms smell nice.

Criticisms? Suggestions?
 

Stretch

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Nick, I will reply later.

Currently working 8:00 AM to 10:00 PM. (AC contractor) not much time for the internet right now.

Stretch
 

Abby Normal

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In ye olde days beforeth ye global warming ye climate was much more coolth
 

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