Earth Connected to Neutral


K

keenbutconfused

Hello. Have been looking on the internet for a while now and althoug
haven't managed to find an answer to my question do feel an enormou
sense of relief in finding a group of people who between them seem t
have an enormous body of knowledge and the willingness to help peopl
like me (electricity newcomer) out. I hope you can help
Have taken down existing light fitting in bathroom and have found
cables that seem confusing.

Electrics in bathroom are as follows. One pull switch which turns th
one light fitting on and off. When I turn on the light the fan als
comes on. There is an isolator switch whcih can be used to turn off th
fan whilst the light is still on. When the light is turned off the fa
stays on and then turns itself off after about 5 minutes. There is als
a shaver socket.

I have drawn a diagram of how the wires are connected in the ligh
fitting and the pull cord switch. See link below.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/16915564337.jpg&s=x4

I have been given two suggestions as to how to fix this. Either put i
tc&e cable between pullcord and light. However I do not have access t
the void where the cable runs.

The second suggestion is to wire up as per this diagram.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/17015330484.jpg&s=x2

This would lose me the use of the timer in the fan but would give m
back an effective earth hence making it safe.

Can anybody see any problems/ dangers with this second approach whic
is what I intend to do?

Any help you can offer would be really appreciated.

Thank
 
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A

AlexW

keenbutconfused wrote:

Can anybody see any problems/ dangers with this second approach which
is what I intend to do?

Any help you can offer would be really appreciated.

Thanks
As this is in the bathroom...

I am not sure this classifies as "help" but it is worth considering the
implications of building regulations Part P (I am assuming you're in the
UK). Searching this NG on google groups should give you a lead.

Alex
 
F

Fred

AlexW said:
keenbutconfused wrote:



As this is in the bathroom...

I am not sure this classifies as "help" but it is worth considering the
implications of building regulations Part P (I am assuming you're in the
UK). Searching this NG on google groups should give you a lead.

Alex
Are you suggesting that under Part P he can't render his wiring in his
bathroom safe or should I say safer. Or should he just leave it as it is
and save forking out a couple of hundred pounds or so? Is this progress?
 
J

John Rumm

keenbutconfused said:
Electrics in bathroom are as follows. One pull switch which turns the
one light fitting on and off. When I turn on the light the fan also
comes on. There is an isolator switch whcih can be used to turn off the
fan whilst the light is still on. When the light is turned off the fan
stays on and then turns itself off after about 5 minutes. There is also
a shaver socket.
The fan will expect a neutral plus a permanent live and a switched live.
It looks like the power feed to the light has been taken to the switch
position rather than the (now) more common "loop in" wiring where power
it taken to the fitting first and a separate drop wire is run back to
the switch.

Hence the setup you currently have is with the earth being used as a
switched live...
I have been given two suggestions as to how to fix this. Either put in
tc&e cable between pullcord and light. However I do not have access to
the void where the cable runs.
The other option would be if you could get power to the light position
from elsewhere - then you could demote the cable drop to the switch to
the task of supplying only the switching function rather than also
having to provide a full feed with neutral.

Can you get the the light position from the loft/room above the bathroom?
The second suggestion is to wire up as per this diagram.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/17015330484.jpg&s=x2

This would lose me the use of the timer in the fan but would give me
back an effective earth hence making it safe.
Yup that ought to work OK at the expense of loss of the "run on" timer.

Without more cores to your cable (or providing power to the fitting
itself rather than the switch) that is as good as you are going to get it.
 
A

AlexW

Fred said:
Are you suggesting that under Part P he can't render his wiring in his
bathroom safe or should I say safer. Or should he just leave it as it is
and save forking out a couple of hundred pounds or so? Is this progress?
All I am suggesting is that the OP (whatever gender) should understand
the implications of Part P. Irrespective of whatever happens next ...
its better than being ignorant of them, IMO.

Alex.
 
B

BigWallop

keenbutconfused said:
Hello. Have been looking on the internet for a while now and although
haven't managed to find an answer to my question do feel an enormous
sense of relief in finding a group of people who between them seem to
have an enormous body of knowledge and the willingness to help people
like me (electricity newcomer) out. I hope you can help
Have taken down existing light fitting in bathroom and have found 2
cables that seem confusing.

Electrics in bathroom are as follows. One pull switch which turns the
one light fitting on and off. When I turn on the light the fan also
comes on. There is an isolator switch whcih can be used to turn off the
fan whilst the light is still on. When the light is turned off the fan
stays on and then turns itself off after about 5 minutes. There is also
a shaver socket.

keenbutconfused
Someone has used the Earth Connecting Conductor in the cable as a secondary
neutral for the switch and permanent neutral to the extractor fan.

This is not dangerous in the fact that the cables can not take the current
rating of the loads they are connected to, but, it does make it dangerous in
not having a proper safety earth ground connection to fitting in an area
that contains large humidity factors.

Can you see if a separate earth conductor has been installed to the light
fitting or fan assembly? If not, then it might be easier to leave the
existing wiring scheme and install a single earth conductor to the light
fitting and fan points. You may be able to do this from the metal back box
of a socket or other light fitting close to the bathroom area.
 
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B

bigcat

Fred said:
Are you suggesting that under Part P he can't render his wiring in his
bathroom safe or should I say safer.
That is precisely what part p means.

NT
 
H

Hugh

keenbutconfused said:
Hello. Have been looking on the internet for a while now and although
haven't managed to find an answer to my question do feel an enormous
sense of relief in finding a group of people who between them seem to
have an enormous body of knowledge and the willingness to help people
like me (electricity newcomer) out. I hope you can help
Have taken down existing light fitting in bathroom and have found 2
cables that seem confusing.

Electrics in bathroom are as follows. One pull switch which turns the
one light fitting on and off. When I turn on the light the fan also
comes on. There is an isolator switch whcih can be used to turn off the
fan whilst the light is still on. When the light is turned off the fan
stays on and then turns itself off after about 5 minutes. There is also
a shaver socket.

I have drawn a diagram of how the wires are connected in the light
fitting and the pull cord switch. See link below.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/16915564337.jpg&s=x4

I have been given two suggestions as to how to fix this. Either put in
tc&e cable between pullcord and light. However I do not have access to
the void where the cable runs.

The second suggestion is to wire up as per this diagram.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/17015330484.jpg&s=x2

This would lose me the use of the timer in the fan but would give me
back an effective earth hence making it safe.

Can anybody see any problems/ dangers with this second approach which
is what I intend to do?

Any help you can offer would be really appreciated.

Thanks
Just to point out that in your diagram you say that the light fitting
doesn't need earthing.
It does if you can reach for example a shower cubicle while touching the
fitting.
My electrician made me cross bond to a radiator before issuing a
certificate. That meant using surface mounted conduit, and earth cable
clipped to skirting boards - I was a bit miffed as this was a completely
re-furbished house and could have been installed within wall spaces, loft
etc.
 
O

Owain

Hugh said:
Just to point out that in your diagram you say that the light fitting
doesn't need earthing.
It does if you can reach for example a shower cubicle while touching the
fitting.
Has a circuit-protective-conductor not to be run in parallel with all
cables and to all accessory positions, regardless of whether its'
"required" or not?

471-08-08

In every installation which provides for protection against indirect
contact by automatic disconnection of supply, a circuit protective
conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at
each accessory except a lampholder having no exposed-conductive-parts
and suspended from such a point. {i.e. the cpc must be taken to a
ceiling rose, but need not be continued to a pendant}

and note also

471-09-02

Where a circuit supplies items of Class II equipment, a cpc shall be run
to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory [...
exception as above, or where 471-09-03 applies]

Owain
 
J

John

Fred said:
Are you suggesting that under Part P he can't render his wiring in his
bathroom safe or should I say safer. Or should he just leave it as it is
and save forking out a couple of hundred pounds or so? Is this progress?
ANY work in a bathroom including just swapping a broken switch or lampholder
is classed as notifiable work and must be either carried out by a registered
contractor or notified to Building Control and inspected by them.

STUPID but what do you expect from the Fuckwits department



--

John

1st January new building regs (Electrical)

Lives will be lost for this political move, so no. Needed rewires will
be delayed, extension leads and adaptors will be used instead of
fitting sockets, fuseboards will not be replaced with modern CUs, and
so on. Its only effect is to impede sensible people improving their and
others' safety.

It is now an offence for us to improve our own domestic safety levels.

It is now an offence for someone with a degree in electrical and
electronic eng to rewire their house: no, a 17 year old with an NVQ must
do it instead.


Whoever put part P together is in line for some serious embarrassment.
 
B

BigWallop

John said:
ANY work in a bathroom including just swapping a broken switch or lampholder
is classed as notifiable work and must be either carried out by a registered
contractor or notified to Building Control and inspected by them.

STUPID but what do you expect from the Fuckwits department

John
I thought swapping like for like for exempt from notification. I could be
wrong though.
 
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S

Stefek Zaba

BigWallop said:
I thought swapping like for like for exempt from notification. I could be
wrong though.
No, you have it correct: like-for-like replacement is not notifiable
even in a 'special location' (bathroom) or kitchen.

However, in this case, he needs to make the wiring less of a bodge job;
and that he can't do without Notification and Inspection.

Stefek
 
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B

BigWallop

Stefek Zaba said:
No, you have it correct: like-for-like replacement is not notifiable
even in a 'special location' (bathroom) or kitchen.

However, in this case, he needs to make the wiring less of a bodge job;
and that he can't do without Notification and Inspection.

Stefek
Even if the fittings are still the same ones, or like for like? I think KBC
(the OP) could argue the case that "he" never touched it.
 

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