Woodgrain Vinyl Windows

Discussion in 'Misc DIY' started by arrtform@yahoo.com, Dec 16, 2004.

  1. Guest

    I'm looking for a quality vinyl window with wood grain finish. I'm
    more inclined to go with well known manufacturers, since they stand
    behind their product (in case of delamination/other failures).
    Does anyone have suggestions on some good products?

    Thanks
    Art
    , Dec 16, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Guest

    25 YR IN THE WINDOW INDUSTRY AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN A WOOD GRAIN VINYL
    WINDOW THAT LOOKED ANYTHING LIKE WOOD
    BUT HERE ARE SOME OF THE MANUFACTUERS. VINYL BUILDING PRODS. (VBP.COM)
    AND SILVERLINE (SILVERLINE.COM (I THINK))
    FOR A NICE LOOKING WOOD REPLACEMENT WINDOW TRY HARVEY WINDOWS IT IS A
    WOOD INTERIOR WITH ALUMINUM EXTERIOR
    AND WHILE YOUR AT IT SEE IF ANY HAVE A COOL NEW PRODUCT CALLED THE
    SAFETY WASH SYSTEM IT IS USED TO SUPPORT THE DOUBLE HUNG SASH WHEN
    TILTED INWARD

    GOOD LUCK
    , Dec 16, 2004
    #2
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  3. Cooper Guest

    <> wrote
    > I'm looking for a quality vinyl window with wood grain finish. I'm
    > more inclined to go with well known manufacturers, since they stand
    > behind their product (in case of delamination/other failures).
    > Does anyone have suggestions on some good products?
    >
    > Thanks
    > Art


    You didn't mention what part of the world you're located in. If by chance
    it's in the Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania, or Michigan areas, Modern Builders
    is a distributor for Polaris. Modern is wholesale only, so you would need a
    contractor to order for you. I used to install these for 14 yrs. They have
    an excellent product.
    http://www.polaristechnologies.com/products/windows/ultraweld/index.htm

    Alsides has more locations Nationwide. They also have a superb replacement
    window available with a laminated woodgrain on the interior. Alsides is also
    wholesale only.
    http://www.alside.com/windows/ultramax.htm
    Cooper, Dec 17, 2004
    #3
  4. In article <6Wrwd.1014$>,
    Cooper <> wrote:
    ><> wrote
    >> I'm looking for a quality vinyl window with wood grain finish. I'm
    >> more inclined to go with well known manufacturers, since they stand
    >> behind their product (in case of delamination/other failures).
    >> Does anyone have suggestions on some good products?



    Just curious, but wouldn't it be easier to find a wooden window with
    wood grain finish? Wh the insistence on vinyl? It's tacky, too. (IMO)


    Dimitri
    D. Gerasimatos, Dec 17, 2004
    #4
  5. Cooper Guest

    "D. Gerasimatos" wrote
    > Just curious, but wouldn't it be easier to find a wooden window with
    > wood grain finish? Wh the insistence on vinyl? It's tacky, too. (IMO)
    >
    >
    > Dimitri


    Having been in the trades for almost 30 yrs. b/4 I retired. I had/have
    access to almost any product. I put vinyl windows in my own home, one year
    after first installing them. I would put them in again in a heartbeat.

    I have no idea why you would say they're tacky, except that you never seen a
    laminated vinyl window. From the outside, they look better than the wooden
    windows which are vinyl/aluminum capped from the
    factory, PLUS you don't have the problem of water infiltration to the wood.
    On the inside, you don't get water spots from _sweating_ during the cold
    weather as you do on wood. I like the vinyl to clean over the wood,
    interior & exterior.

    You don't have to worry about vinyl swelling as you do wood. Vinyl will not
    rot as wood.
    Cooper, Dec 17, 2004
    #5
  6. v Guest

    On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:18:52 +0000 (UTC), someone wrote:

    >Just curious, but wouldn't it be easier to find a wooden window with
    >wood grain finish?
    >

    Oh the irony. Wood windows do not have any raised "wood grain", they
    are sanded smooth. Wood siding is similar. Vinyl clapboards have
    "wood grain", while my actual wood clapboards are smooth.....

    -v.


    Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.
    v, Dec 17, 2004
    #6
  7. In article <>, v <> wrote:
    >On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:18:52 +0000 (UTC), someone wrote:
    >
    >>Just curious, but wouldn't it be easier to find a wooden window with
    >>wood grain finish?
    >>

    >Oh the irony. Wood windows do not have any raised "wood grain", they
    >are sanded smooth. Wood siding is similar. Vinyl clapboards have
    >"wood grain", while my actual wood clapboards are smooth.....



    I did not assume he wanted a raised grain, but rather the appearance of
    wood grain. Even on fine furniture (sanded smooth) can you see the grain
    of the wood.


    Dimitri
    D. Gerasimatos, Dec 17, 2004
    #7
  8. In article <QzBwd.2587$>,
    Cooper <> wrote:
    >
    >Having been in the trades for almost 30 yrs. b/4 I retired. I had/have
    >access to almost any product. I put vinyl windows in my own home, one year
    >after first installing them. I would put them in again in a heartbeat.
    >
    >I have no idea why you would say they're tacky, except that you never seen a
    >laminated vinyl window. From the outside, they look better than the wooden
    >windows which are vinyl/aluminum capped from the
    >factory, PLUS you don't have the problem of water infiltration to the wood.
    >On the inside, you don't get water spots from _sweating_ during the cold
    >weather as you do on wood. I like the vinyl to clean over the wood,
    >interior & exterior.
    >
    >You don't have to worry about vinyl swelling as you do wood. Vinyl will not
    >rot as wood.




    Vinyl has its own set of problems like discoloration. I do not think a
    vinyl window will last as long as a good wooden window, which can last
    for almost forever. As to whether they are tacky, that is my personal
    opinion and I will never, ever install a vinyl window. I am working hard
    to remove the vinyl windows the previous owners 'upgraded' to. Also, to
    stay on topic, if this guy wants the appearance of stained wood then the best
    way to accomplish that is with stained wood. No vinyl window will give the
    appearance of oak or mahogany or whatever this guy is trying to achieve.


    Dimitri
    D. Gerasimatos, Dec 17, 2004
    #8
  9. "D. Gerasimatos" wrote:
    >
    > In article <>, v <> wrote:
    > >On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:18:52 +0000 (UTC), someone wrote:
    > >
    > >>Just curious, but wouldn't it be easier to find a wooden window with
    > >>wood grain finish?
    > >>

    > >Oh the irony. Wood windows do not have any raised "wood grain", they
    > >are sanded smooth. Wood siding is similar. Vinyl clapboards have
    > >"wood grain", while my actual wood clapboards are smooth.....

    >
    > I did not assume he wanted a raised grain, but rather the appearance of
    > wood grain. Even on fine furniture (sanded smooth) can you see the grain
    > of the wood.


    Depends on how it's finished--don't see much grain on a Steinway grand,
    for example. :)

    But, in general, I get your drift...and concur wrt vinyl--in areas w/
    high UV exposure even expensive vinyl tends to break down. On a related
    topic, some of the <very> expensive vinyl fences in town have sagged and
    discolored so badly in only about 10 years they're being taken down.
    Duane Bozarth, Dec 17, 2004
    #9
  10. Cooper Guest

    "D. Gerasimatos" wrote
    > Vinyl has its own set of problems like discoloration. I do not think a
    > vinyl window will last as long as a good wooden window, which can last
    > for almost forever. As to whether they are tacky, that is my personal
    > opinion and I will never, ever install a vinyl window. I am working hard
    > to remove the vinyl windows the previous owners 'upgraded' to. Also, to
    > stay on topic, if this guy wants the appearance of stained wood then the

    best
    > way to accomplish that is with stained wood. No vinyl window will give the
    > appearance of oak or mahogany or whatever this guy is trying to achieve.


    Discoloration occurs with recycled vinyl, not virgin vinyl. Virgin vinyl
    will not crack like recycled vinyl. There is a huge difference between the
    two. Many vinyl windows are made with recycled products, this is what gives
    someone with limited experience or knowledge, the impression that they are
    junk.

    You can think whatever you want on how long they will last. The fact is,
    both links I posted, the vinyl is guaranteed for life and both the windows
    are transferable to new ownership. You will _not_ find that guarantee on a
    wood window. I've installed literally thousands of both wood and vinyl
    windows.

    You are wrong on the appearance, I can tell you _never_ had the opportunity
    to examine a quality laminated vinyl next to a wood window.

    You would do yourself a world of good to explore all the possibilites of
    todays products instead of just what's in your own home. I don't blame you
    for being sour, especially if the previous owner had some garbage windows
    installed.
    Cooper, Dec 17, 2004
    #10
  11. Cooper Guest

    "Duane Bozarth" wrote

    > Depends on how it's finished--don't see much grain on a Steinway grand,
    > for example. :)
    >
    > But, in general, I get your drift...and concur wrt vinyl--in areas w/
    > high UV exposure even expensive vinyl tends to break down. On a related
    > topic, some of the <very> expensive vinyl fences in town have sagged and
    > discolored so badly in only about 10 years they're being taken down.


    Expensive, BUT no doubt was recycled products. Virgin vinyl will not
    discolor. Thickness & cavities plays a huge part on strength. This is what
    the consumer must be aware of.
    Cooper, Dec 17, 2004
    #11
  12. In article <4qFwd.1111403$>,
    Cooper <> wrote:
    >
    >Discoloration occurs with recycled vinyl, not virgin vinyl. Virgin vinyl
    >will not crack like recycled vinyl. There is a huge difference between the
    >two. Many vinyl windows are made with recycled products, this is what gives
    >someone with limited experience or knowledge, the impression that they are
    >junk.



    I disagree with this. At some point the material is going to discolor,
    simply because dyes don't last forever. The color will fade. With a wooden
    window, you just paint it and it is like new. With a vinyl window you
    are stuck replacing it. Lots of people consider the fact that you don't
    have to paint vinyl to be a plus, but it's actually a drawback. What if
    you change the color scheme of your house, for instance?


    >You can think whatever you want on how long they will last. The fact is,
    >both links I posted, the vinyl is guaranteed for life and both the windows
    >are transferable to new ownership. You will _not_ find that guarantee on a
    >wood window. I've installed literally thousands of both wood and vinyl
    >windows.



    Well, we definitely know the track record with wooden windows. There are
    very old buildings that still have the original timber intact. I will be
    shocked if your vinyl windows look good in 150 years, but if they do then
    they are still no better than wood.


    >You are wrong on the appearance, I can tell you _never_ had the opportunity
    >to examine a quality laminated vinyl next to a wood window.



    What would be a 'quality laminated vinyl window'? Milgard? Champion?


    >You would do yourself a world of good to explore all the possibilites of
    >todays products instead of just what's in your own home. I don't blame you
    >for being sour, especially if the previous owner had some garbage windows
    >installed.



    The previous owner's windows are doing fine, but they are *VINYL*. Who is
    a good manufacturer of vinyl windows that can do true divided lights with
    insulated glass? I have never seen such a beast. Neither will you find
    a vinyl window that you can stain.


    Dimitri
    D. Gerasimatos, Dec 17, 2004
    #12
  13. Cooper wrote:
    >
    > "Duane Bozarth" wrote
    >
    > > Depends on how it's finished--don't see much grain on a Steinway grand,
    > > for example. :)
    > >
    > > But, in general, I get your drift...and concur wrt vinyl--in areas w/
    > > high UV exposure even expensive vinyl tends to break down. On a related
    > > topic, some of the <very> expensive vinyl fences in town have sagged and
    > > discolored so badly in only about 10 years they're being taken down.

    >
    > Expensive, BUT no doubt was recycled products. Virgin vinyl will not
    > discolor. Thickness & cavities plays a huge part on strength. This is what
    > the consumer must be aware of.


    But what's the sense in paying as much (or even more) than wood for a
    product that doesn't do that much better? Painting a good quality wood
    will keep it functional and look better besides (the vinyl products
    <look> like vinyl--edges aren't crisp, slats are wide...)

    I'm wondering where're you're located...in milder climates, a lot of
    things last better than here in the arid southwest with strong sun, high
    winds, temperature extremes...

    Repainting is more frequent here than where I lived in TN/VA, too... :(
    but at least it <can> be repainted :)
    Duane Bozarth, Dec 17, 2004
    #13
  14. Cooper Guest

    "D. Gerasimatos" wrote

    > I disagree with this. At some point the material is going to discolor,
    > simply because dyes don't last forever. The color will fade. With a wooden
    > window, you just paint it and it is like new. With a vinyl window you
    > are stuck replacing it. Lots of people consider the fact that you don't
    > have to paint vinyl to be a plus, but it's actually a drawback. What if
    > you change the color scheme of your house, for instance?


    You can disagree all you like, virgin vinyl has already been proven. There
    is no fading with the exception of dark brown in virgin vinyl. As I said
    about familiarizing yourself with todays products and technologies. You're
    never stuck with a product. I've seen faux finishes that fooled my trained
    eye, surely you have at least heard about faux finishes. They can be
    applied to _any_ surface. Maintenance free is what vinyl is all about.


    > Well, we definitely know the track record with wooden windows. There are
    > very old buildings that still have the original timber intact. I will be
    > shocked if your vinyl windows look good in 150 years, but if they do then
    > they are still no better than wood.


    I seriously doubt anyone buys a home believing they will live in it for 150
    years. Or any material item for that matter. The point is pretty much
    moot.


    > What would be a 'quality laminated vinyl window'? Milgard? Champion?



    I provided links to two of the best products on the market.


    > The previous owner's windows are doing fine, but they are *VINYL*. Who is
    > a good manufacturer of vinyl windows that can do true divided lights with
    > insulated glass? I have never seen such a beast. Neither will you find
    > a vinyl window that you can stain.


    The mullions on vinyl are in between the panes. This makes cleaning a
    breeze. I don't believe even my mother if she were alive would say one good
    thing about divided panes, except that they were a pain.

    About the staining, as I said above. Faux finishes. I've seen steel doors
    that I swore were wood. I've seen concrete that I swore was marble. I've
    seen vinyl patio doors that I swore was wood. I don't mean to be insulting,
    but you really need to get out.
    Cooper, Dec 17, 2004
    #14
  15. Cooper Guest

    "Duane Bozarth" wrote
    > But what's the sense in paying as much (or even more) than wood for a
    > product that doesn't do that much better? Painting a good quality wood
    > will keep it functional and look better besides (the vinyl products
    > <look> like vinyl--edges aren't crisp, slats are wide...)
    >
    > I'm wondering where're you're located...in milder climates, a lot of
    > things last better than here in the arid southwest with strong sun, high
    > winds, temperature extremes...
    >
    > Repainting is more frequent here than where I lived in TN/VA, too... :(
    > but at least it <can> be repainted :)


    I'll hold my tongue as far as the fences go. I'm not a big fan of them,
    wood or vinyl. But, I live where the extremes in the country are. The
    Midwest up by Lake Erie, where temperatures can be -30 to +105. The
    products in this area pretty much prove themselves or not, in short order.
    Cooper, Dec 17, 2004
    #15
  16. Cooper wrote:
    >
    > "Duane Bozarth" wrote
    > > But what's the sense in paying as much (or even more) than wood for a
    > > product that doesn't do that much better? Painting a good quality wood
    > > will keep it functional and look better besides (the vinyl products
    > > <look> like vinyl--edges aren't crisp, slats are wide...)
    > >
    > > I'm wondering where're you're located...in milder climates, a lot of
    > > things last better than here in the arid southwest with strong sun, high
    > > winds, temperature extremes...
    > >
    > > Repainting is more frequent here than where I lived in TN/VA, too... :(
    > > but at least it <can> be repainted :)

    >
    > I'll hold my tongue as far as the fences go. I'm not a big fan of them,
    > wood or vinyl. But, I live where the extremes in the country are. The
    > Midwest up by Lake Erie, where temperatures can be -30 to +105. The
    > products in this area pretty much prove themselves or not, in short order.


    Temperature extremes are even greater here, particularly daily swings
    are much larger in arid climates than in more humid ones (humid air has
    higher heat capacity, therefore doesn't gain/lose heat nearly as
    rapidly). We don't get the below zero stuff as frequently as there, but
    it has been -40 here in my lifetime and we'll normally get 110 or so at
    least a couple of times each year and a lot of >100 (although this past
    summer was surprisingly mild--I think we had only 10 or so +100 days all
    summer).

    The primary difference I see in comparing any building materials here
    where I grew up and presently reside to the 30 years I spent elsewhere
    (SE/mid-Atlantic, whatever you want to call it) is the UV. Elevation
    and clear skies contribute to that as well. We'll see whether current
    vinyl windows installed in these areas will last over time--well, I
    probably won't, but the young sprouts will... :)

    I'm not holding out much odds yet that any plastic product will make
    even 30 years here. Many of the replacement products that work
    routinely elsewhere just don't have the survivability here.

    I'm like Dimitri, though...most of my complaint is they just <look> like
    vinyl (at least everyone I've seen yet).

    I'm looking at an addition to the house for sometime the next couple of
    years...it's a frame two-story square farmhouse built 1914-15. Windows
    are double hung w/ leaded glass upper lights. Nine narrow vertical
    sections w/ overlapping triangles at the top and bottom which make a
    2-1/2"-sq diamond pattern across the top and bottom ... anybody able to
    do that w/ double glazing? So far, I've not found even a wood window
    that is a close enough match although I haven't yet done a custom-made
    request. I may learn how to do the leaded glass and end up building
    them myself except I can't do double pane. (I have all the shop stuff
    needed and am making new ones for the barn now--they weren't painted for
    50 years so they <didn't> last).

    \ \ /\ /\ /
    \/ / \ /
    / \/ \/ \/ \
    | | |
    | | |

    Something like the above pattern if the angles were 45-deg...that won't
    look at all like anything unless you have a fixed font, of course...the
    really neat thing about the current windows is that none of them have
    been broken so they still have the original glass w/ the occasional
    imperfections, etc....some of the lower panes have been broken because
    the eave overhang is enough to keep them protected from really strong
    wind-driven hail.
    Duane Bozarth, Dec 17, 2004
    #16
  17. Cooper Guest

    "Duane Bozarth" wrote
    > I'm looking at an addition to the house for sometime the next couple of
    > years...it's a frame two-story square farmhouse built 1914-15. Windows
    > are double hung w/ leaded glass upper lights. Nine narrow vertical
    > sections w/ overlapping triangles at the top and bottom which make a
    > 2-1/2"-sq diamond pattern across the top and bottom ... anybody able to
    > do that w/ double glazing? So far, I've not found even a wood window
    > that is a close enough match although I haven't yet done a custom-made
    > request. I may learn how to do the leaded glass and end up building
    > them myself except I can't do double pane. (I have all the shop stuff
    > needed and am making new ones for the barn now--they weren't painted for
    > 50 years so they <didn't> last).
    >
    > \ \ /\ /\ /
    > \/ / \ /
    > / \/ \/ \/ \
    > | | |
    > | | |
    >
    > Something like the above pattern if the angles were 45-deg...that won't
    > look at all like anything unless you have a fixed font, of course...the
    > really neat thing about the current windows is that none of them have
    > been broken so they still have the original glass w/ the occasional
    > imperfections, etc....some of the lower panes have been broken because
    > the eave overhang is enough to keep them protected from really strong
    > wind-driven hail.


    I'm sure you're looking at custom glass for what you want. Someone
    somewhere will do it, for a price. OTOH, if you could do your own glass. It
    would be worth a few phone calls to glass shops, and inquire about you
    supplying the glass, if they would make double pane units for you.
    Good Luck on that one, sounds like an interesting project.
    Cooper, Dec 17, 2004
    #17
  18. In article <hOHwd.1112136$>,
    Cooper <> wrote:
    >
    >You can disagree all you like, virgin vinyl has already been proven. There
    >is no fading with the exception of dark brown in virgin vinyl. As I said
    >about familiarizing yourself with todays products and technologies. You're
    >never stuck with a product. I've seen faux finishes that fooled my trained
    >eye, surely you have at least heard about faux finishes. They can be
    >applied to _any_ surface. Maintenance free is what vinyl is all about.



    Well, at least you are now admitting that fading can happen.


    >I seriously doubt anyone buys a home believing they will live in it for 150
    >years. Or any material item for that matter. The point is pretty much
    >moot.



    Oh? The idea is not that they will live in the home for 150 years, but
    that longevity is one indicator of quality. It would be nice if every
    homeowner remodels with this in mind. I choose materials that will stand
    the test of time so that later on someone else (perhaps a stranger,
    perhaps a descendant) doesn't have to duplicate the effort. Of course it
    is a cost/benefit analysis and I won't spring for the best of everything
    but if a better quality item costs just a bit more then it is worth it.
    In this case, a wooden window is far, far more attractive than a vinyl
    window in addition to lasting longer and being more versatile.


    >I provided links to two of the best products on the market.



    I guess I did not see them. Please repost.


    >The mullions on vinyl are in between the panes. This makes cleaning a
    >breeze. I don't believe even my mother if she were alive would say one good
    >thing about divided panes, except that they were a pain.



    See? Here is yet another 'feature' of vinyl windows that many people
    regard as a 'defect'. I cannot stand mullions between the panes. What
    if you want to change the color of the mullions? You regard this as
    a feature and I regard it as cut-rate.


    >About the staining, as I said above. Faux finishes. I've seen steel doors
    >that I swore were wood. I've seen concrete that I swore was marble. I've
    >seen vinyl patio doors that I swore was wood. I don't mean to be insulting,
    >but you really need to get out.



    Well, I don't mean to be insulting but I think you need glasses.


    Dimitri
    D. Gerasimatos, Dec 17, 2004
    #18
  19. In article <>,
    Duane Bozarth <> wrote:
    >

    [snip!]
    >
    >I'm looking at an addition to the house for sometime the next couple of
    >years...it's a frame two-story square farmhouse built 1914-15. Windows
    >are double hung w/ leaded glass upper lights. Nine narrow vertical
    >sections w/ overlapping triangles at the top and bottom which make a
    >2-1/2"-sq diamond pattern across the top and bottom ... anybody able to
    >do that w/ double glazing? So far, I've not found even a wood window
    >that is a close enough match although I haven't yet done a custom-made
    >request. I may learn how to do the leaded glass and end up building
    >them myself except I can't do double pane. (I have all the shop stuff
    >needed and am making new ones for the barn now--they weren't painted for
    >50 years so they <didn't> last).



    You don't need to do a double glazed window. You can use insulated glass,
    instead. You will need to have these custom-made, of course. I used
    insulated glass in my 1929 English and it looks much more authentic than
    a double glazed window. It insulates sound better than a dual pane window,
    although it is not as energy efficient. However, I am of the opinion that
    energy efficient windows are a little silly anyway since they are after
    all windows letting in light and (when open) air. They are never going to
    insulate like a wall can and will always be a place where energy is lost.
    The one drawback of insulated glass is that it is HEAVY. If your
    double-hung windows work with weights like mine do then you will need
    a bigger weight and sometimes a bigger weight just won't fit.


    Dimitri
    D. Gerasimatos, Dec 17, 2004
    #19
  20. Cooper Guest

    "D. Gerasimatos" wrote

    > Well, at least you are now admitting that fading can happen.


    Yes, in dark brown. Are you trying to say paint doesn't fade? Get real.

    > Oh? The idea is not that they will live in the home for 150 years, but
    > that longevity is one indicator of quality. It would be nice if every
    > homeowner remodels with this in mind. I choose materials that will stand
    > the test of time so that later on someone else (perhaps a stranger,
    > perhaps a descendant) doesn't have to duplicate the effort. Of course it
    > is a cost/benefit analysis and I won't spring for the best of everything
    > but if a better quality item costs just a bit more then it is worth it.
    > In this case, a wooden window is far, far more attractive than a vinyl
    > window in addition to lasting longer and being more versatile.


    Noone remodels thinking 150 years in advance. Are you some kind of loon?
    And I say you're wrong about a wood window lasting longer than a vinyl.
    Remember, I had installed thousands of windows. I could count on one hand
    the amount of vinyl windows I took out of a home. The reason being is they
    bought a cut rate vinyl window, kind of like what you have in your home.
    I've handled more quality material than you've ever dreamed of, and the
    typical homeowner like yourself wouldn't know quality if it's staring you in
    the face.

    > I guess I did not see them. Please repost.


    Go back to my original post to the OP.

    > See? Here is yet another 'feature' of vinyl windows that many people
    > regard as a 'defect'. I cannot stand mullions between the panes. What
    > if you want to change the color of the mullions? You regard this as
    > a feature and I regard it as cut-rate.


    Many people regard as a defect? Exactly how many people have you discussed
    windows with? I've dealt with literally thousands of people in my career,
    you are the first one I've heard this from. I'm sure there are more which
    think true divided lites are nicer, for what reason, who knows. I've put in
    Marvin bow windows to the tune of $14k my cost, only to hear the owners cry
    about the finisher is charging $800 to stain and poly. They complained
    about how hard it was going to be to clean all the corners of the panes.
    You talk about changing the color of the mullions, are you truely insane? I
    can't think of one person with an older home that ever had such a thought.
    Wait, I seen one house that did paint the windows a tan instead of white.
    Ok, you got me.


    > Well, I don't mean to be insulting but I think you need glasses.


    No, the problem is you need to walk out your front door and see technology.
    You probably would think you were having a dream into the future.

    You know very little about the technology and improvements that's out there.
    You have proven it. Until you got something useful and factful to say,
    please refrain from making an ass out of yourself.
    Cooper, Dec 18, 2004
    #20
    1. Advertising

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