Wiring dilema

Discussion in 'Misc DIY' started by Alexander Galkin, Jul 6, 2003.

  1. I am updating wiring in my basement as part of major renovation project. I
    have three basement recessed light circuits sitting on the same breaker.
    There is 12 AWG wire running from main panel to the entrance switch box and
    from the switch box there are three separate 12 AWG wires bringing power to
    each of three recessed lights circuit. One of the circuits are 4-way switch
    that controls 4 recessed lights. Unfortunately one of three switches has old
    AWG 14 wire running to the nearest box and there is no way to replace it as
    it is virtually inaccessible. Al other wires are new AWG 12. There are total
    of 25 recessed lights so maximum amperage may exceed (or be near) 15 A. I
    want to use 20 A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch AWG 14
    wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has only 4 lights
    that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I safely use 20 A circuit
    breaker in main panel?
     
    Alexander Galkin, Jul 6, 2003
    #1
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  2. On 05 Jul 2003, Alexander Galkin wrote:

    > I am updating wiring in my basement as part of major renovation
    > project. I have three basement recessed light circuits sitting on the
    > same breaker. There is 12 AWG wire running from main panel to the
    > entrance switch box and from the switch box there are three separate
    > 12 AWG wires bringing power to each of three recessed lights circuit.
    > One of the circuits are 4-way switch that controls 4 recessed lights.
    > Unfortunately one of three switches has old AWG 14 wire running to the
    > nearest box and there is no way to replace it as it is virtually
    > inaccessible. Al other wires are new AWG 12. There are total of 25
    > recessed lights so maximum amperage may exceed (or be near) 15 A. I
    > want to use 20 A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch
    > AWG 14 wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has
    > only 4 lights that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I
    > safely use 20 A circuit breaker in main panel?


    Sure. As long as there are no receptacles on that 14-guage leg,
    and as long as the total wattage of the 4 fixtures won't/can't
    exceed 15A (thats 1800W of lighting at 120V, you don't anticipate
    putting 500W bulbs in them, do you? <g> I'm guessing with that
    many fixtures, you're running a 60W or 75W tops in each?) there
    is no practical way you could overload the wattage total with
    those 4 fixtures. A 100 Watt bulb in each fixture is a total
    draw of only 3.33 A.

    This is where the "code is code is code" types will stop by and
    argue, mainly because they pick every possible fight with me.
    Code is code, but sometimes code needs to be *practical*. If you
    had a *practical* way of replacing that piece of wire, I would
    say sure, follow code.

    Those are the numbers, do what you feel comfortable with.

    TP
    --
     
    Tom Pendergast, Jul 6, 2003
    #2
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  3. Alexander Galkin

    volts500 Guest

    "Tom Pendergast" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns93AFD0C91184Ctomicubedcom@130.133.1.4...
    > On 05 Jul 2003, Alexander Galkin wrote:
    >
    > > I am updating wiring in my basement as part of major renovation
    > > project. I have three basement recessed light circuits sitting on the
    > > same breaker. There is 12 AWG wire running from main panel to the
    > > entrance switch box and from the switch box there are three separate
    > > 12 AWG wires bringing power to each of three recessed lights circuit.
    > > One of the circuits are 4-way switch that controls 4 recessed lights.
    > > Unfortunately one of three switches has old AWG 14 wire running to the
    > > nearest box and there is no way to replace it as it is virtually
    > > inaccessible. Al other wires are new AWG 12. There are total of 25
    > > recessed lights so maximum amperage may exceed (or be near) 15 A. I
    > > want to use 20 A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch
    > > AWG 14 wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has
    > > only 4 lights that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I
    > > safely use 20 A circuit breaker in main panel?

    >
    > Sure.


    NO! If a general purpose circuit is protected at 20 amps ALL the conductors
    must be #12.


    .........SNIPed dangerous advice by Tom Pederast.........


    > This is where the "code is code is code" types will stop by and
    > argue, mainly because they pick every possible fight with me.



    Like I've told you before, Tom Pederast, don't post dangerous info and you
    won't have to whine about people correcting you......and your reply to the
    OP is just _another_ example of the dangerous info that you post. What
    _are_ your qualifications as an electrician?


    > Code is code, but sometimes code needs to be *practical*. If you
    > had a *practical* way of replacing that piece of wire, I would
    > say sure, follow code.



    Gee Wally, how hard is it to run a 14-2 w ground HR (that's a _H_ome _R_un,
    Tommy) to the switch that has the #14? So that's the precedent, eh Tom
    Poltergiest?......if it's TOOOOOOOOOOOO _hard_ it's OK to disregard the
    code? For a wannabe lesstrician (thanks Turtle) butcher like you, evidently
    so.


    > Those are the numbers, do what you feel comfortable with.


    That's the hack butcher's way.......be warned.
     
    volts500, Jul 6, 2003
    #3
  4. Alexander Galkin

    Oscar_lives Guest

    "Tom Pendergast" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns93AFED9A6FA27tomicubedcom@130.133.1.4...
    > On 05 Jul 2003, Joseph Meehan wrote:
    >
    > > No Tom. Not only is it against code and would be pointed out by
    > > any inspector, but it can also be dangerous.

    >
    > With all due respect (and believe me, I do respect your opinions)
    > getting out of bed "can be dangerous".
    >
    > > Who knows what the next guy might due and increase that to over 15
    > > amps,

    >
    > sorry, I don't buy that for a minute. I posted the numbers, and
    > somebody would need to put >450 Watts of lamp in each of these
    > recessed cans to exceed 1800 Watts. The next guy is going to do
    > that? Why? How?
    > Agreed on the need for circuit breakers, but still waiting for
    > anyone to tell me how to run > 1800W of lighting in 4 recessed
    > cans which are very likely plastered with warning labels not to
    > exceed 75 or 100 watt bulbs.
    >
    > Sorry, your only valid argument is "code". You going to tell me
    > every inch of every job you've ever done meets code?
    >
    > In any case, the original poster knows about meeting code, and
    > he knows the practical side of his dilema, let him choose.
    >
    > --
    > TP


    Tommy, anyone but a HACK like you would understand. Read the Code. Learn
    the Code. Follow the Code. Live because of the Code.
     
    Oscar_lives, Jul 6, 2003
    #4
  5. Alexander Galkin

    meirman Guest

    In alt.home.repair on Sat, 5 Jul 2003 19:51:03 -0400 "Alexander
    Galkin" <> posted:

    >I am updating wiring in my basement as part of major renovation project. I
    >have three basement recessed light circuits sitting on the same breaker.
    >There is 12 AWG wire running from main panel to the entrance switch box and
    >from the switch box there are three separate 12 AWG wires bringing power to
    >each of three recessed lights circuit. One of the circuits are 4-way switch
    >that controls 4 recessed lights. Unfortunately one of three switches has old
    >AWG 14 wire running to the nearest box and there is no way to replace it as
    >it is virtually inaccessible. Al other wires are new AWG 12. There are total
    >of 25 recessed lights so maximum amperage may exceed (or be near) 15 A.


    It's important to be concerned about the expected load, but one should
    also think about the unexpected load. For example maybe there will be
    a total short circuit. Even though 14 gauge wire is only rated for 15
    amp, I'm sure it can carry more than 20 amps for a few seconds in case
    of a total short, and the 20 amp circuit breaker will blow.

    Besides the situation described by someone where a later person
    increases the load, the theoretical problem now would be that there
    was some partial short circuit, whatever that would be, that allowed
    ore than 15 amps to flow, but fewer than 20. The breaker would not
    trip, but the wire would in theory be hot enough to start a fire.
    (well, not if it were 16 amps. It would just be a little hotter than
    at 15. I don't know when it gets hot enough to make a fire. Although
    I have phone lines in the house that sometimes work fine and sometimes
    give a big hum and don't work. There's no telling what can happen.

    If you can't change the wires, can you put a 15 amp circuit breaker in
    that circuit only. Is there any way to do this without a circuit
    breaker box? I don't know. What about a light bulb socket, or a
    screw-in fuse socket, rated for more than 15 amps that has instead a
    15 amp fuse. Presumably it will never blow, so one box of 4 will last
    you forever. If it does blow more than once, you'll decide what to do
    then. Is such a fuse within code. If there are no exposed metal
    parts it certainly seems safe enough. If not there must be
    minicircuit breaker boxes. Or bring the 14 guage wire back to the
    main fuse box and do it there. (All wire nuts must be within a
    junction box, I beleive. (What about soldered wires?)

    > I
    >want to use 20 A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch AWG 14
    >wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has only 4 lights
    >that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I safely use 20 A circuit
    >breaker in main panel?
    >



    Meirman

    If emailing, please let me know whether
    or not you are posting the same letter.

    Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.
     
    meirman, Jul 6, 2003
    #5
  6. Alexander Galkin

    Guyz-N-Flyz Guest

    "mike" <> wrote in message news:...
    > I'm surpprised, as dangerous as electric can be, that the Liberals in
    > America allow us to continue using it!


    How else would you fascist conservatives keep-up with our activities?

    Op
     
    Guyz-N-Flyz, Jul 6, 2003
    #6
  7. "Tom Pendergast" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns93AFD0C91184Ctomicubedcom@130.133.1.4...

    > > ....A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch
    > > AWG 14 wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has
    > > only 4 lights that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I
    > > safely use 20 A circuit breaker in main panel?

    >
    > Sure.


    Everything I've either read or been told states that #14awg wire *cannot* be
    protected by a 20 amp breaker. If you're an electrician, I can't believe
    that you would suggest to someone that they ignore this basic tenet.

    In fact, in my municipality, #14awg wire is going by the wayside because
    local codes forbid it's use in new construction. Even our local Lowe's and
    HD's are starting to phase it out and not carry it anymore.

    Alexander, I strongly recommend you ignore this person's advice and hire a
    *licensed electrician* to handle this part of your project - someone who
    will pull the necessary permit(s) and do the job correctly and to code. I
    know it will cost you more money, but I can assure you that it will be money
    well spent. If you have a fire and it's traced to your "not-to-code" wiring
    project, your homeowner's insurance will not be worth the paper it's printed
    on.

    You could also conceivably be setting yourself up as a target for litigation
    if you sell your home and a future homeowner has a fire, particularly if
    serious injury or death is involved. Even if he/she is stupid because
    he/she plugged in a table saw and a space heater into a receptacle screwed
    into one of the light fixture sockets, you could still be sued by both the
    homeowner *and* his insurance company.
     
    Banister Stairwell, Jul 6, 2003
    #7
  8. OK, following majority's advise I will do something to formally adhere to
    the code. Although technically I believe I would be just fine installing a
    20 A breaker. First, that AVG 14 wire that connects one of 4 way switches is
    covered by stairs so it is not possible to replace it without ripping off
    stairs completely. This also leads to the fact that it is not possible to
    add any load to this switch. All other wires in the circuit are AVG 12 so
    even if "some guy would connect table saw, or heater" or anything else as
    has been discussed it won't burn that AVG 14 wire as current won't flow over
    it. Yes, there is code but there is also common sense, that is not less
    important.



    "Banister Stairwell" <> wrote in message
    news:ajZNa.44099$...
    > "Tom Pendergast" <> wrote in message
    > news:Xns93AFD0C91184Ctomicubedcom@130.133.1.4...
    >
    > > > ....A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch
    > > > AWG 14 wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has
    > > > only 4 lights that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I
    > > > safely use 20 A circuit breaker in main panel?

    > >
    > > Sure.

    >
    > Everything I've either read or been told states that #14awg wire *cannot*

    be
    > protected by a 20 amp breaker. If you're an electrician, I can't believe
    > that you would suggest to someone that they ignore this basic tenet.
    >
    > In fact, in my municipality, #14awg wire is going by the wayside because
    > local codes forbid it's use in new construction. Even our local Lowe's

    and
    > HD's are starting to phase it out and not carry it anymore.
    >
    > Alexander, I strongly recommend you ignore this person's advice and hire a
    > *licensed electrician* to handle this part of your project - someone who
    > will pull the necessary permit(s) and do the job correctly and to code. I
    > know it will cost you more money, but I can assure you that it will be

    money
    > well spent. If you have a fire and it's traced to your "not-to-code"

    wiring
    > project, your homeowner's insurance will not be worth the paper it's

    printed
    > on.
    >
    > You could also conceivably be setting yourself up as a target for

    litigation
    > if you sell your home and a future homeowner has a fire, particularly if
    > serious injury or death is involved. Even if he/she is stupid because
    > he/she plugged in a table saw and a space heater into a receptacle screwed
    > into one of the light fixture sockets, you could still be sued by both the
    > homeowner *and* his insurance company.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    Alexander Galkin, Jul 6, 2003
    #8
  9. "Alexander Galkin" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > OK, following majority's advise I will do something to formally adhere to
    > the code.


    I think you've made a good choice here.

    > First, that AVG 14 wire that connects one of 4 way switches is
    > covered by stairs so it is not possible to replace it without ripping off
    > stairs completely.


    Perhaps, but you'd be amazed at what an experienced professional electrician
    can do as far as routing wire through seemingly impossible paths.

    > Yes, there is code but there is also common sense, that is not less
    > important.


    Unfortunately, I think if you were to try and make this argument to an
    insurance company or an attorney, it may very well fall on deaf ears.

    Again, you've made a good decision in wanting to do it right and to code.
    Not that you would have a problem necesssarily, but you'll be covered if you
    do.




























    >
    >
    > "Banister Stairwell" <> wrote in message
    > news:ajZNa.44099$...
    > > "Tom Pendergast" <> wrote in message
    > > news:Xns93AFD0C91184Ctomicubedcom@130.133.1.4...
    > >
    > > > > ....A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch
    > > > > AWG 14 wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has
    > > > > only 4 lights that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I
    > > > > safely use 20 A circuit breaker in main panel?
    > > >
    > > > Sure.

    > >
    > > Everything I've either read or been told states that #14awg wire

    *cannot*
    > be
    > > protected by a 20 amp breaker. If you're an electrician, I can't

    believe
    > > that you would suggest to someone that they ignore this basic tenet.
    > >
    > > In fact, in my municipality, #14awg wire is going by the wayside because
    > > local codes forbid it's use in new construction. Even our local Lowe's

    > and
    > > HD's are starting to phase it out and not carry it anymore.
    > >
    > > Alexander, I strongly recommend you ignore this person's advice and hire

    a
    > > *licensed electrician* to handle this part of your project - someone who
    > > will pull the necessary permit(s) and do the job correctly and to code.

    I
    > > know it will cost you more money, but I can assure you that it will be

    > money
    > > well spent. If you have a fire and it's traced to your "not-to-code"

    > wiring
    > > project, your homeowner's insurance will not be worth the paper it's

    > printed
    > > on.
    > >
    > > You could also conceivably be setting yourself up as a target for

    > litigation
    > > if you sell your home and a future homeowner has a fire, particularly if
    > > serious injury or death is involved. Even if he/she is stupid because
    > > he/she plugged in a table saw and a space heater into a receptacle

    screwed
    > > into one of the light fixture sockets, you could still be sued by both

    the
    > > homeowner *and* his insurance company.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Banister Stairwell, Jul 6, 2003
    #9
  10. Alexander Galkin

    TURTLE Guest

    "Tom Pendergast" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns93AFED9A6FA27tomicubedcom@130.133.1.4...
    >
    >
    > Sorry, your only valid argument is "code". You going to tell me
    > every inch of every job you've ever done meets code?
    >
    > In any case, the original poster knows about meeting code, and
    > he knows the practical side of his dilema, let him choose.
    >
    > --
    > TP


    This is Turtle.

    TP , You say that Joesph's only arguement or point to stand on is it being ,
    it's not to code , and you say he is wrong by wanting to stay to the NEC
    code. TP when you ask this question to him [ your going to say every job you
    ever done was to code] . This tells me one of two things about you. 1)
    Your just bulling here to get a responce from the group to have fun and play
    a game. OR 2) Your a Very Inane incubus person with no respect at all for
    human life or property.

    Which is it TP ? Yea TP, it's going to be hard to answer this one with out
    a dictionary for your not going to choose the bulling part are you.

    TURTLE
     
    TURTLE, Jul 6, 2003
    #10
  11. Alexander Galkin

    JM Guest

    quoting:
    >I am updating wiring in my basement as part of major renovation project. I
    >have three basement recessed light circuits sitting on the same breaker.
    >There is 12 AWG wire running from main panel to the entrance switch box and
    >from the switch box there are three separate 12 AWG wires bringing power to
    >each of three recessed lights circuit. One of the circuits are 4-way switch
    >that controls 4 recessed lights. Unfortunately one of three switches has old
    >AWG 14 wire running to the nearest box and there is no way to replace it as
    >it is virtually inaccessible. Al other wires are new AWG 12. There are total
    >of 25 recessed lights so maximum amperage may exceed (or be near) 15 A. I
    >want to use 20 A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch AWG 14
    >wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has only 4 lights
    >that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I safely use 20 A circuit
    >breaker in main panel?



    It would not be immediatly dangerous because you're not overloading the #14
    wire, but code says you can't overfuse wire, so do it right by doing
    either one of the following...

    1) Find a miracle way to replace the #14 wire with #12. (best)

    or

    2) Install 15A breaker instead of 20A one.

    25 65w flood lamps total 13.75A. Replace the ones that or ON at least three
    hours continous per day with fluorescent ones to drop the amperage total
    below 12A, and it should not be a problem on a 15A breaker. Problem solved.
    Other things that will drop the amperage: dimmers and the fact all of the
    lights won't be ON all at the same time.
     
    JM, Jul 7, 2003
    #11
  12. "Trent©" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 17:49:58 GMT, "Banister Stairwell"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >If you have a fire and it's traced to your "not-to-code" wiring
    > >project, your homeowner's insurance will not be worth the paper it's

    printed
    > >on.

    >
    > Do you know this for a fact?...or are you speculating?


    A couple of years ago, a business partner of mine had a fire in one of his
    rental properties. Fortunately, the property was vacant at the time and no
    one was hurt, but the house was a total loss. His insurance refused to pay
    the claim because the fire was caused by a "not-to-code" electrical
    modification that he did. His trying to save a few bucks ended up costing
    him about $50K.

    > Hope you had a nice 4th weekend...


    We did. Hope you did as well.
     
    Banister Stairwell, Jul 7, 2003
    #12
  13. Trent© wrote:
    > On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 17:49:58 GMT, "Banister Stairwell"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>If you have a fire and it's traced to your "not-to-code" wiring
    >>project, your homeowner's insurance will not be worth the paper it's printed
    >>on.

    >
    >
    > Do you know this for a fact?...or are you speculating?
    >
    >
    > Hope you had a nice 4th weekend...
    >
    > Trent
    >
    > Help keep down the world population...have your partner spayed or
    > neutered.


    I was called to testify against a homeowner who did his own work which
    then caused the loss in question. The judge would not even let the
    issue go to trial. He lectured the plaintiff home owners attorney for
    even filing because "it is a legal absurdity to claim that an insurer
    must compensate for the results of an unlawful act."
    --
    Tom
     
    Thomas D. Horne, Jul 7, 2003
    #13
  14. Alexander Galkin

    Guyz-N-Flyz Guest

    "Thomas D. Horne" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I was called to testify against a homeowner who did his own work which
    > then caused the loss in question. The judge would not even let the
    > issue go to trial. He lectured the plaintiff home owners attorney for
    > even filing because "it is a legal absurdity to claim that an insurer
    > must compensate for the results of an unlawful act."
    > --
    > Tom
    >

    I don't know that what you are saying applies in every state. In NC, in
    many counties, you may wire your own home without a license, but you are
    restricted from selling that house for a certain number of years, IINM. I
    rewired my mother's home about 10 years ago with the blessing of the county
    electrical inspector. He came out looked it over and signed off on it.

    Op --
     
    Guyz-N-Flyz, Jul 7, 2003
    #14
  15. Guyz-N-Flyz wrote:
    > "Thomas D. Horne" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >>I was called to testify against a homeowner who did his own work which
    >>then caused the loss in question. The judge would not even let the
    >>issue go to trial. He lectured the plaintiff home owners attorney for
    >>even filing because "it is a legal absurdity to claim that an insurer
    >>must compensate for the results of an unlawful act."
    >>--
    >>Tom
    >>

    >
    > I don't know that what you are saying applies in every state. In NC, in
    > many counties, you may wire your own home without a license, but you are
    > restricted from selling that house for a certain number of years, IINM. I
    > rewired my mother's home about 10 years ago with the blessing of the county
    > electrical inspector. He came out looked it over and signed off on it.
    >
    > Op --


    What I'm saying does apply to every state. You obtained a permit. You
    passed electrical inspection. The original premise is that if your
    illegally installed electric work causes a loss your insurance company
    can walk away. Nothing about your situation indicates that this is not
    true.
    --
    Tom
     
    Thomas D. Horne, Jul 7, 2003
    #15
  16. Alexander Galkin

    volts500 Guest

    "Guyz-N-Flyz" <> wrote in message
    news:becovj$3bktq$...
    >
    > "Thomas D. Horne" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > I was called to testify against a homeowner who did his own work which
    > > then caused the loss in question. The judge would not even let the
    > > issue go to trial. He lectured the plaintiff home owners attorney for
    > > even filing because "it is a legal absurdity to claim that an insurer
    > > must compensate for the results of an unlawful act."
    > > --
    > > Tom
    > >

    > I don't know that what you are saying applies in every state. In NC, in
    > many counties, you may wire your own home without a license, but you are
    > restricted from selling that house for a certain number of years, IINM. I
    > rewired my mother's home about 10 years ago with the blessing of the

    county
    > electrical inspector. He came out looked it over and signed off on it.
    >
    > Op --


    Yes, that is the case in some states, but the installation still needs to
    meet code. If a contractor wires it, the insurance co. can go after the
    contractor if something happens..........if a homeowner does it and decides
    to throw local code to the wind, he just doesn't collect if something
    happens (and the insurance co. can prove it)........just hope it doesn't end
    up as a wrongful death............like the guy in Connecticut some years
    ago.......wired a baseboard heater in a basement......broke _19_ codes
    rules......4 year old child killed in the fire.......guy got convicted of
    manslaughter. Sorry, don't have the reference, but I'm sure that it's not
    hard to find......I just remember reading about it.
     
    volts500, Jul 7, 2003
    #16
  17. Alexander Galkin

    Guyz-N-Flyz Guest

    "Thomas D. Horne" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > What I'm saying does apply to every state. You obtained a permit. You
    > passed electrical inspection. The original premise is that if your
    > illegally installed electric work causes a loss your insurance company
    > can walk away. Nothing about your situation indicates that this is not
    > true.
    > --
    > Tom
    >


    Allow me to clarify my previous statements. If you are allowed to wire your
    own home, by law, it is not an illegal act and couldn't *necessarily* be
    ground for the insurance company to refuse coverage of your loss.

    Now they (the insurer) may want to "walk away, they couldn't claim you did
    the work illegally. Just because the electrical inspector okays the work
    done doesn't mean it fully complies with NEC, yet you don't see electrical
    inspectors being carted of to jail nor are the sued by insurance companies
    for losses.

    Op --legal issues can be awfully ambiguous at times--
     
    Guyz-N-Flyz, Jul 7, 2003
    #17
  18. Tom Pendergast wrote:
    > On 07 Jul 2003, Thomas D. Horne wrote:
    >
    >>Trent© wrote:
    >>
    >>>"B. S." wrote:

    >>

    >
    >>>>If you have a fire and it's traced to your "not-to-code" wiring
    >>>>project, your homeowner's insurance will not be worth the paper it's
    >>>>printed on.
    >>>

    >
    >
    >>>Do you know this for a fact?...or are you speculating?

    >>

    >
    >>I was called to testify against a homeowner who did his own work which
    >>then caused the loss in question. The judge would not even let the
    >>issue go to trial. He lectured the plaintiff home owners attorney for
    >>even filing because "it is a legal absurdity to claim that an insurer
    >>must compensate for the results of an unlawful act."

    >
    >
    > Ridiculous. It is no more "unlawful" for homeowners in many
    > municipalities to work on their own electric than it is to water
    > their lawn.
    >


    I never said that it is illegal for a homeowner to do their own wiring.
    But in areas that require permits and inspection by law it is illegal
    for the home owner to wire anything in their home without a permit and
    subsequent inspection. If you do the wiring in violation of the law
    requiring a permit and that wiring causes a loss your insurance will not
    cover that loss. There is a very low likelihood of the insurance
    carrier discovering the cause but if they do they can and have walked
    away from the loss. If someone is injured in the fire it is
    investigated much more carefully. If that someone is a victim of
    obvious and damnable carelessness the investigators will be at pains to
    inform the insurance carrier of your role in the cause of the fire.
    --
    Tom
     
    Thomas D. Horne, Jul 8, 2003
    #18
  19. "Trent©" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > What have YOU personally experienced? I hear fish stories all the
    > time.


    Fish story??

    Trent, you asked me a question and I answered it. I wasn't "speculating"
    when I posted what happened to my partner. But, if you want to suggest that
    because it didn't happen to me personally that it makes my advise to the OP
    invalid, then that's entirely up to you.
     
    Banister Stairwell, Jul 8, 2003
    #19
  20. "Thomas D. Horne" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > I never said that it is illegal for a homeowner to do their own wiring.
    > But in areas that require permits and inspection by law it is illegal
    > for the home owner to wire anything in their home without a permit and
    > subsequent inspection. If you do the wiring in violation of the law
    > requiring a permit and that wiring causes a loss your insurance will not
    > cover that loss.


    Thanks, Tom. This is the very point I've been trying to make.
     
    Banister Stairwell, Jul 8, 2003
    #20
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