Stockade fence, boards shrinking?

Discussion in 'Home Repair' started by mm, Aug 31, 2009.

  1. mm

    mm Guest

    A neighbor has a stockade fence, with pickets about 3 inches wide.

    It's been in 5 or 7 years and it's easily possible to see between the
    pickets into his yard. It wast very difficult to see anything when
    the fence was new.

    Does that mean the fence was built with pickets that hadn't been aged
    enough before construction???? Have the boards shrunk more than they
    should have??

    A friend likes the fence otherwise and wants to hire the same company,
    but I think she may get an inferior job, if this fence is inferior.
     
    mm, Aug 31, 2009
    #1
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  2. mm

    stan Guest

    On Aug 31, 6:12 am, mm <> wrote:
    > A neighbor has a stockade fence, with pickets about 3 inches wide.
    >
    > It's been in 5 or 7 years and it's easily possible to see between the
    > pickets into his yard.  It wast very difficult to see anything when
    > the fence was new.
    >
    > Does that mean the fence was built with pickets that hadn't been aged
    > enough before construction????   Have the boards shrunk more than they
    > should have??
    >
    > A friend likes the fence otherwise and wants to hire the same company,
    > but I think she may get an inferior job, if this fence is inferior.


    Yes all boards may shrink; depends on the climate/weather, how the
    fence was painted/treated, especially the edge and end grains of the
    boards at and since installation etc.
    Since climate change seems to be definitely occurring warmer climate
    etc. will also dry, even boards that originally and completely met
    moisture specification when purchased. The boards in some dry 100 year
    old house, protected from the weather etc. will, for example, have
    shrunk considerably.
     
    stan, Aug 31, 2009
    #2
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  3. mm

    ransley Guest

    On Aug 31, 3:12 am, mm <> wrote:
    > A neighbor has a stockade fence, with pickets about 3 inches wide.
    >
    > It's been in 5 or 7 years and it's easily possible to see between the
    > pickets into his yard.  It wast very difficult to see anything when
    > the fence was new.
    >
    > Does that mean the fence was built with pickets that hadn't been aged
    > enough before construction????   Have the boards shrunk more than they
    > should have??
    >
    > A friend likes the fence otherwise and wants to hire the same company,
    > but I think she may get an inferior job, if this fence is inferior.


    With using pressure treated on decks its common to butt boards tight,
    after it dries you have nice gaps for drainage. PT is so wet new it
    weighs near double of dry wood. To see no gaps some people fence both
    sides of poles or use dried wood, the job was not inferior on that
    part, how they sunk and secured posts and type of fasteners is more
    important than gaps. To insure quality pull a permit and get the free
    inspection you paid for, and dont fully pay until its fully approved,
    your friend did pull a permit. The code office can if they want have
    you remove it otherwise, but its usualy its just a fine.
     
    ransley, Aug 31, 2009
    #3
  4. mm

    mm Guest

    On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 06:46:34 -0500, "HeyBub" <>
    wrote:

    >mm wrote:
    >> A neighbor has a stockade fence, with pickets about 3 inches wide.
    >>
    >> It's been in 5 or 7 years and it's easily possible to see between the
    >> pickets into his yard. It wast very difficult to see anything when
    >> the fence was new.
    >>
    >> Does that mean the fence was built with pickets that hadn't been aged
    >> enough before construction???? Have the boards shrunk more than they
    >> should have??
    >>
    >> A friend likes the fence otherwise and wants to hire the same company,
    >> but I think she may get an inferior job, if this fence is inferior.

    >
    >Pressure treated lumber is soaked in the anti-rot chemicals and expands.
    >When erected, it dries and shrinks.


    What about not pressure treated? Does it shrink so that one can see
    in? I'm pretty sure these pickets aren't PT, (and I know mine aren't,
    but my 42" fence isn't stockade. It alternates between pickets and
    open spaces).
    >
    >One solution is to buy the pickets needed and stack them in a dry place -
    >with plenty of air circulation - for a month or two before installing.
    >
    >The gaps are not the fault of the installers. It's what wood does. Some
    >wood.
    >
     
    mm, Aug 31, 2009
    #4
  5. mm

    mm Guest

    On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 05:42:17 -0700 (PDT), ransley
    <> wrote:

    >On Aug 31, 3:12 am, mm <> wrote:
    >> A neighbor has a stockade fence, with pickets about 3 inches wide.
    >>
    >> It's been in 5 or 7 years and it's easily possible to see between the
    >> pickets into his yard.  It wast very difficult to see anything when
    >> the fence was new.
    >>
    >> Does that mean the fence was built with pickets that hadn't been aged
    >> enough before construction????   Have the boards shrunk more than they
    >> should have??
    >>
    >> A friend likes the fence otherwise and wants to hire the same company,
    >> but I think she may get an inferior job, if this fence is inferior.

    >
    >With using pressure treated on decks its common to butt boards tight,
    >after it dries you have nice gaps for drainage.


    I should have said that these pickets aren't PT. Would regular ones
    also shrink enough that one coudl see through the fence?

    It has also had two pickets crack and and slivers fall off. One sliver
    was small but one was 5 foot long and two inches wide at one end.
    They also used nails left rust stains on each picket. I forgot about
    the slivers and rust and I will tell my friend about them.

    But now I remember, they are what made me suspicious about the
    shrinkage.

    >PT is so wet new it
    >weighs near double of dry wood. To see no gaps some people fence both
    >sides of poles or use dried wood, the job was not inferior on that
    >part, how they sunk and secured posts and type of fasteners is more
    >important than gaps. To insure quality pull a permit and get the free
    >inspection you paid for, and dont fully pay until its fully approved,
    >your friend did pull a permit. The code office can if they want have
    >you remove it otherwise, but its usualy its just a fine.
     
    mm, Aug 31, 2009
    #5
  6. mm

    windcrest Guest

    On Aug 31, 3:12 am, mm <> wrote:
    > A neighbor has a stockade fence, with pickets about 3 inches wide.
    >
    > It's been in 5 or 7 years and it's easily possible to see between the
    > pickets into his yard.  It wast very difficult to see anything when
    > the fence was new.
    >
    > Does that mean the fence was built with pickets that hadn't been aged
    > enough before construction????   Have the boards shrunk more than they
    > should have??
    >
    > A friend likes the fence otherwise and wants to hire the same company,
    > but I think she may get an inferior job, if this fence is inferior.


    Its not the installers fault, or the woods fault, what you describe is
    normal. The only way to make a wood fence you cant see through is to
    use T&G (tongue and groove) boards or a design that laps the boards.
     
    windcrest, Aug 31, 2009
    #6
  7. mm

    fftt Guest

    On Aug 31, 1:12 am, mm <> wrote:
    > A neighbor has a stockade fence, with pickets about 3 inches wide.
    >
    > It's been in 5 or 7 years and it's easily possible to see between the
    > pickets into his yard.  It wast very difficult to see anything when
    > the fence was new.
    >
    > Does that mean the fence was built with pickets that hadn't been aged
    > enough before construction????   Have the boards shrunk more than they
    > should have??
    >
    > A friend likes the fence otherwise and wants to hire the same company,
    > but I think she may get an inferior job, if this fence is inferior.


    All wood shrinks or grows as it loses or gains moisture.....its the
    nature of the material.

    But shrinkage varies considerably from species to species. Denser
    woods generally shrink more than lighter woods.
    I use the following numbers for rough estimates.......

    about 8% tangential shrinkage, 4% radial shrinkage, and 0.1%
    longitudinal shrinkage from the green to oven dry condition.

    Or if I'm working in framing construction with DF, I tell people to
    use 1/28th (.036") of an inch per inch cross grain

    So a 5.5" fence board will shirnk about .2" green to dry (well at
    least in SoCal). Considering unevenness in the boards what were
    butted, you can still get about 1/4" gap. :(

    T&G or board & batten would eliminate gaps

    But IMO a more important consideration is screw material......in my
    area, fence permits yield not much oversight. I see a LOT of
    permitted fences getting screws that are too short & rust in a year or
    two badly streaking the fence boards.

    SS screws are more expensive but make all the difference.

    cheers
    Bob
     
    fftt, Aug 31, 2009
    #7
  8. mm

    stan Guest

    On Aug 31, 12:58 pm, fftt <> wrote:
    > On Aug 31, 1:12 am, mm <> wrote:
    >
    > > A neighbor has a stockade fence, with pickets about 3 inches wide.

    >
    > > It's been in 5 or 7 years and it's easily possible to see between the
    > > pickets into his yard.  It wast very difficult to see anything when
    > > the fence was new.

    >
    > > Does that mean the fence was built with pickets that hadn't been aged
    > > enough before construction????   Have the boards shrunk more than they
    > > should have??

    >
    > > A friend likes the fence otherwise and wants to hire the same company,
    > > but I think she may get an inferior job, if this fence is inferior.

    >
    > All wood shrinks or grows as it loses or gains moisture.....its the
    > nature of the material.
    >
    > But shrinkage varies considerably from species to species.    Denser
    > woods generally shrink more than lighter woods.
    > I use the following numbers for rough estimates.......
    >
    > about 8% tangential shrinkage, 4% radial shrinkage, and 0.1%
    > longitudinal shrinkage from the green to oven dry condition.
    >
    > Or if I'm working in framing construction with DF,   I tell people to
    > use 1/28th (.036") of an inch per inch cross grain
    >
    > So a 5.5" fence board will shirnk about .2" green to dry (well at
    > least in SoCal).  Considering unevenness in the boards what were
    > butted, you can still get about 1/4" gap.  :(
    >
    > T&G or board & batten would eliminate gaps
    >
    > But IMO a more important consideration is screw material......in my
    > area, fence permits yield not much oversight.    I see a LOT of
    > permitted fences getting screws that are too short & rust in a year or
    > two badly streaking the fence boards.
    >
    > SS screws are more expensive but make all the difference.
    >
    > cheers
    > Bob


    Nobody using galvanised nails these days?????????
    Had to change some PT 2 by 8 deck-boards on our deck recently due to
    water drips causing limited rot and used screws for the new boards.
    But the 25+ year old 3 inch and 4 inch hot galvanised nails were
    holding well and not rusted; even in this maritime climate.
    So nail away. As my late father in law, who had worked building US
    bases in Newfoundland, Labrador and Greenland used to
    say .................. "I want to see at least two or three nails in
    each match (T&G) board"!
    The T&G felt and tarred roof on his own still standing house must be
    over 100 years old now!
     
    stan, Aug 31, 2009
    #8
  9. mm

    Jim Elbrecht Guest

    On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 09:44:22 -0500, "HeyBub" <>
    wrote:

    >mm wrote:
    >>>
    >>> Pressure treated lumber is soaked in the anti-rot chemicals and
    >>> expands. When erected, it dries and shrinks.

    >>
    >> What about not pressure treated? Does it shrink so that one can see
    >> in? I'm pretty sure these pickets aren't PT, (and I know mine aren't,
    >> but my 42" fence isn't stockade. It alternates between pickets and
    >> open spaces).

    >
    >I suspect that unless the wood is marked "kiln dried" it's gonna shrink.
    >That's what wood does - some woods more than others, of course.
    >Nevertheless, the drier the wood, the less it will shrink.
    >
    >Of course when dry wood gets wet - like being rained on - it will swell. In
    >a fence, however, that won't matter since the picket is trapped between
    >neighboring pickets.
    >


    But if they were kiln dried & stapled on tight together, they would
    all pop off the first time it rained. I suspect they attach them
    green so shrinkage only causes gaps and subsequent swelling will not
    destroy the fence.

    Jim
     
    Jim Elbrecht, Aug 31, 2009
    #9
  10. mm

    mm Guest

    On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:22:29 -0400, mm <>
    wrote:

    >
    >>With using pressure treated on decks its common to butt boards tight,
    >>after it dries you have nice gaps for drainage.

    >
    >I should have said that these pickets aren't PT. Would regular ones
    >also shrink enough that one coudl see through the fence?
    >
    >It has also had two pickets crack and and slivers fall off. One sliver
    >was small but one was 5 foot long and two inches wide at one end.
    >They also used nails left rust stains on each picket. I forgot about
    >the slivers and rust and I will tell my friend about them.
    >
    >But now I remember, they are what made me suspicious about the
    >shrinkage.


    And the other reason I was suspicious was that when I called them
    looking for pickets for my fence, they were out of business already.

    But you've convinced me that pickets shrink.

    I'll admit, you can't stand 5 feet away and see in the fence, but you
    can go up to it almost anywhere and look in. It seems to defeat the
    idea of privacy. Although only natural wood fences are allowed here.
     
    mm, Aug 31, 2009
    #10
  11. mm

    mm Guest

    On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 07:36:35 -0700 (PDT), windcrest
    <> wrote:

    >
    >> A friend likes the fence otherwise and wants to hire the same company,
    >> but I think she may get an inferior job, if this fence is inferior.

    >
    >Its not the installers fault, or the woods fault, what you describe is
    >normal. The only way to make a wood fence you cant see through is to
    >use T&G (tongue and groove) boards or a design that laps the boards.


    Thanks. I guess full privacy was never possible, at least here, since
    the people in the next house can look out their second floor window
    and see what's going on.

    But I would think the two designs you suggest woudl be more popular. I
    don't remember seeing them advertised.
     
    mm, Aug 31, 2009
    #11
  12. mm

    mm Guest

    On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 08:22:17 -0700 (PDT), stan
    <> wrote:

    >
    >
    >Nobody using galvanised nails these days?????????


    My fence was made, 30 years ago, with galvanized nails, and I still
    use them when I replace pickets.

    But this fence I'm disassembling was made with thinner nails, thinner
    than the refill of a cheap ballpoint pen, but with spiral flutes (what
    do you call that?) So the nail turns when nailed in, but is much
    harder to get out. I removed quite a few nails without damaging
    them, so I'm going to try them, and if I like them I'll try to buy
    some.

    Have you ever seen such nails for sale. What are they called???


    BTW, I can't find new pickets for sale -- I asked about that here once
    and tried your suggestions, but no joy. I've tried the internet, and
    shopped for pickets when visiting my brother in Dallas - but I found a
    guy replacing his fence, and he's selling me all the used pickets I
    want for 10 cents a piece. He has maybe 1000 but I only want 120 to
    200 (plus the 80 new pickets I still have.) Actually, I've only seen
    him once. He's replacing the fence himself and he puts 2 sections of
    fence outside of his fence, facing the unsold home my good friend used
    to live in, and I go there and take apart the sections and clean up,
    so I'm saving him work. So far I owe him about $12.00 for 120
    pickets. I think there are 33 to a section but 3 or 4 will be clearly
    bad, probably break while I'm taking them off. Almost all the rest
    look fine. I also have untreated pickets that are still fine after
    30 years, if they get enough sun during the day.

    (And if I trimmed the bottoms off so termites don't get in from the
    bottom. An exterminator's wife explained this to me. I went to their
    house to hire him, and while she held the baby, she said you don't
    want to use these terrible poisons if you don't have to. Just cut off
    the bottom of the pickets an inch or two above the grass, so that even
    when the grass needs mowing, the termites won't get in, and you won't
    neeed poison. Termites don't like to come out in the light, and they
    have short legs so they can't jump. So if they can't step on the
    picket from a blade of grass, they won't go.)

    >Had to change some PT 2 by 8 deck-boards on our deck recently due to
    >water drips causing limited rot and used screws for the new boards.


    BTW, my 6x12 deck was also 30 years old and needed replacing for two
    years or more. When I wwnt to do it earlier this summer, the first 4
    feet + pulled off by hand, but the part under my 2 foot overhang were
    still nailed in well, and the 2x6's weren't rotting that far back.

    In other words, even though both parts of the deck were outside, the
    part that got rained on more really aged a lot faster. Maybe that
    shouldnt' surprise me but it did.


    So I just put posts in closer to the house, cut off 4.5 feet, put on a
    new fascia board and now I have a work bench instead of a deck. I
    never used the deck anyhow, and now I have more lawn, in my little
    townhouse lot. (6780 sq. ft. counting where the house is.)

    >But the 25+ year old 3 inch and 4 inch hot galvanised nails were
    >holding well and not rusted; even in this maritime climate.
    >So nail away. As my late father in law, who had worked building US
    >bases in Newfoundland, Labrador and Greenland used to
    >say .................. "I want to see at least two or three nails in
    >each match (T&G) board"!
    >The T&G felt and tarred roof on his own still standing house must be
    >over 100 years old now!


    Cool. Build it right and it lasts a long time (Sometimes build it
    wrong and it lasts a long time, too. but longer if you do it right. )
     
    mm, Sep 1, 2009
    #12
  13. mm

    fftt Guest

    On Aug 31, 8:22 am, stan <> wrote:
    > On Aug 31, 12:58 pm, fftt <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Aug 31, 1:12 am, mm <> wrote:

    >
    > > > A neighbor has a stockade fence, with pickets about 3 inches wide.

    >
    > > > It's been in 5 or 7 years and it's easily possible to see between the
    > > > pickets into his yard.  It wast very difficult to see anything when
    > > > the fence was new.

    >
    > > > Does that mean the fence was built with pickets that hadn't been aged
    > > > enough before construction????   Have the boards shrunk more than they
    > > > should have??

    >
    > > > A friend likes the fence otherwise and wants to hire the same company,
    > > > but I think she may get an inferior job, if this fence is inferior.

    >
    > > All wood shrinks or grows as it loses or gains moisture.....its the
    > > nature of the material.

    >
    > > But shrinkage varies considerably from species to species.    Denser
    > > woods generally shrink more than lighter woods.
    > > I use the following numbers for rough estimates.......

    >
    > > about 8% tangential shrinkage, 4% radial shrinkage, and 0.1%
    > > longitudinal shrinkage from the green to oven dry condition.

    >
    > > Or if I'm working in framing construction with DF,   I tell people to
    > > use 1/28th (.036") of an inch per inch cross grain

    >
    > > So a 5.5" fence board will shirnk about .2" green to dry (well at
    > > least in SoCal).  Considering unevenness in the boards what were
    > > butted, you can still get about 1/4" gap.  :(

    >
    > > T&G or board & batten would eliminate gaps

    >
    > > But IMO a more important consideration is screw material......in my
    > > area, fence permits yield not much oversight.    I see a LOT of
    > > permitted fences getting screws that are too short & rust in a year or
    > > two badly streaking the fence boards.

    >
    > > SS screws are more expensive but make all the difference.

    >
    > > cheers
    > > Bob

    >
    > Nobody using galvanized nails these days?????????
    > Had to change some PT 2 by 8 deck-boards on our deck recently due to
    > water drips causing limited rot and used screws for the new boards.
    > But the 25+ year old 3 inch and 4 inch hot galvanised nails were
    > holding well and not rusted; even in this maritime climate.
    > So nail away. As my late father in law, who had worked building US
    > bases in Newfoundland, Labrador and Greenland used to
    > say .................. "I want to see at least two or three nails in
    > each match (T&G) board"!
    > The T&G felt and tarred roof on his own still standing house must be
    > over 100 years old now!


    Old hot dipped galvanized nails are a whole different animal than the
    crap typically available today.

    If the material & your labor is worth anything...use SS siding nails
    or screws.

    cheers
    Bob
     
    fftt, Sep 1, 2009
    #13
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