running a straight line through trees

Discussion in 'Home Repair' started by Jules, Nov 19, 2009.

  1. Jules

    Jules Guest

    We've got a bunch of woodland that's partly on our property and partly on
    a neighboring (vacant) plot. Runs for about 300' or so, and there's a
    boundary marker either side of the woods.

    I'd quite like to add a few more markers within the trees, just so we know
    where the boundary is (and maybe fence at a later date) - question is, how
    to mark it out? The woodland's too dense to see through to the other side,
    even at night with a flashlight on one of the markers, so I can't just
    walk and "home in" on it.

    I'm not sure that GPS is accurate enough to do it that way - any other
    clever tricks?

    Did wonder about running two lines, meeting at one of the markers. All I
    need to do is get them straight through the trees (which might be a
    challenge in itself) - then I can presumably measure distance from each
    to the other marker at the far end, translate that to a scrap of paper,
    and calculate where the "true line" is between the two markers for any
    given distance along one of my guide lines. Does that make sense? Maybe
    there's a simpler way, though...

    Ideas on a postcard, or on usenet, whichever is easier.

    cheers

    Jules
     
    Jules, Nov 19, 2009
    #1
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  2. Jules

    Jules Guest

    On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:54:28 -0500, Kurt Ullman wrote:
    > You did not say why.


    Ahh, there's a possibility that the vacant lot is going to be sold, so I
    figured I should maybe mark the line a bit better than just the two
    boundary poles. The lot's shaped such that any buyer would be unlikely to
    pull trees down to put a building in (it's about 4 acres I think and the
    extra effort of taking down an acre of trees doesn't seem sensible) - but
    some folk can be strange :)

    We might just buy it ourselves eventually, but have too many financial
    commitments for the next 3 months to think about that (OTOH once the snow
    hits I bet it won't get much interest until next Spring)

    > If you want to
    > actually do something like build a fence, etc., then you probably should
    > get it surveyed.


    Yes, calling in a professional is one option, although I'm curious how
    they do it when they don't have line-of-sight either. I doubt 6" either
    way is any big deal (it's just not the sort of place where people get
    pissed about that kind of thing!) but I'm not sure if GPS is quite that
    accurate (at least not the civilian stuff)

    cheers

    Jules
     
    Jules, Nov 19, 2009
    #2
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  3. Jules

    Guest

    On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:42:37 -0600, Jules
    <> wrote:

    >
    >We've got a bunch of woodland that's partly on our property and partly on
    >a neighboring (vacant) plot. Runs for about 300' or so, and there's a
    >boundary marker either side of the woods.
    >
    >I'd quite like to add a few more markers within the trees, just so we know
    >where the boundary is (and maybe fence at a later date) - question is, how
    >to mark it out? The woodland's too dense to see through to the other side,
    >even at night with a flashlight on one of the markers, so I can't just
    >walk and "home in" on it.
    >
    >I'm not sure that GPS is accurate enough to do it that way - any other
    >clever tricks?
    >
    >Did wonder about running two lines, meeting at one of the markers. All I
    >need to do is get them straight through the trees (which might be a
    >challenge in itself) - then I can presumably measure distance from each
    >to the other marker at the far end, translate that to a scrap of paper,
    >and calculate where the "true line" is between the two markers for any
    >given distance along one of my guide lines. Does that make sense? Maybe
    >there's a simpler way, though...
    >
    >Ideas on a postcard, or on usenet, whichever is easier.
    >
    >cheers
    >
    >Jules
    >
    >


    Run a line parallel to the existing markers but outside the wooded
    area. Then from any point you like on the reference line, measure
    perpendicular into the woods the same length as the offset of the
    outside line from the end markers.
     
    , Nov 19, 2009
    #3
  4. Jules

    Guest

    On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:08:45 -0600, Jules
    <> wrote:

    >On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:54:28 -0500, Kurt Ullman wrote:
    >> You did not say why.

    >
    >Ahh, there's a possibility that the vacant lot is going to be sold, so I
    >figured I should maybe mark the line a bit better than just the two
    >boundary poles. The lot's shaped such that any buyer would be unlikely to
    >pull trees down to put a building in (it's about 4 acres I think and the
    >extra effort of taking down an acre of trees doesn't seem sensible) - but
    >some folk can be strange :)
    >
    >We might just buy it ourselves eventually, but have too many financial
    >commitments for the next 3 months to think about that (OTOH once the snow
    >hits I bet it won't get much interest until next Spring)
    >
    >> If you want to
    >> actually do something like build a fence, etc., then you probably should
    >> get it surveyed.

    >
    >Yes, calling in a professional is one option, although I'm curious how
    >they do it when they don't have line-of-sight either. I doubt 6" either
    >way is any big deal (it's just not the sort of place where people get
    >pissed about that kind of thing!) but I'm not sure if GPS is quite that
    >accurate (at least not the civilian stuff)
    >
    >cheers
    >
    >Jules


    No, a GPS is definitely not accurate enough for that purpose.
     
    , Nov 19, 2009
    #4
  5. Jules

    dpb Guest

    Kurt Ullman wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > Jules <> wrote:
    >
    >> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:54:28 -0500, Kurt Ullman wrote:
    >>> You did not say why.

    >> Ahh, there's a possibility that the vacant lot is going to be sold, so I
    >> figured I should maybe mark the line a bit better than just the two
    >> boundary poles. The lot's shaped such that any buyer would be unlikely to
    >> pull trees down to put a building in (it's about 4 acres I think and the
    >> extra effort of taking down an acre of trees doesn't seem sensible) - but
    >> some folk can be strange :)

    > Then it would have to be surveyed, at least according to the way
    > they do things around Indy.


    But all they would do would be to confirm the location of the existing
    boundary corners--no need to survey where the straight line between two
    marks actually runs for the legal description so they won't do so.

    As for finding the line itself lacking line-of-sight, manually it's
    painstakingly working one's way thru from one sighting to another.

    I don't know what the inexpensive handheld GPS gizmos can do; I've never
    had one or looked to see as never really cared that much. BUT, US WAAS
    static accuracy is +/- (roughly) 30". This is what's freely available
    but not guaranteed availability.

    Additional corrections can be made to a single signal but afaik these
    are all subscription services and whether the cheapie devices include
    that cost in the upfront purchase cost I don't have a clue.

    We use John Deere AutoTrac(tm) with their proprietary SF2 subscription
    service on the tractors/spray rigs/etc. which has an absolute static
    accuracy of +/- ~10" but repeatability of tracking of better than half
    that (the latter is the more critical for our purposes of controlling
    row spacings and spray coverage as opposed to your desire to know where
    a point is physically located).

    So, all in all, I don't know what you could get inexpensively but I'd
    expect more like the 30" rather than the 10" numbers.

    FSA (USDA Farm Service Agency) uses GPS to do monitoring/compliance on
    acreages but they, of course, have access to whatever level of
    technology the DOA(griculture) has access to. They routinely print out
    computer-generated maps down to the 0.0001 mile (1/2") but I seriously
    doubt the data are that accurate only that that's what their silly
    compter output formats are. I'd guess they're roughly at the 10" value
    overall although I don't think any of the technicians nor even our
    office director have that level of knowledge of the technical
    details--only how to use the supplied equipment and software systems.

    I routinely measure fields by the rolling wheel technique for waypoints
    in the total field for operations such as haying or similar and ignore
    anything less than roughly 1/10A (which is a strip roughly 1/2-ft wide
    over a half-mile row) and have never been called to task. That close is
    reasonably easy to get as each revolution on a rod wheel is 1/4 of
    16.5-ft or 4+ ft so 1-ft is a quarter revolution. 1-rod by 1/2-mile is
    1A and most of our land is farmed in quarters which are 160A or 1/2-mi
    square so that's far more convenient measure rather than feet-inches by
    hand. The JD AutoTrac readouts can be switched to whatever units one
    wants since it's all computer-based, of course.

    But, all that to say the higher accuracy GPS numbers above don't come
    cheaply (at least w/ green paint (or red, either, for that matter).

    --
     
    dpb, Nov 19, 2009
    #5
  6. Jules

    Jules Guest

    On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:19:25 -0500, salty wrote:
    > Run a line parallel to the existing markers but outside the wooded
    > area. Then from any point you like on the reference line, measure
    > perpendicular into the woods the same length as the offset of the
    > outside line from the end markers.


    Aha - yes, that's a good plan. There are really too many buildings on our
    side of the line to do that, but I can do it from the vacant plot (the
    folk who own it currently are good enough that I know they won't mind)

    cheers

    Jules
     
    Jules, Nov 19, 2009
    #6
  7. Jules

    Tony Guest

    Jules wrote:
    > We've got a bunch of woodland that's partly on our property and partly on
    > a neighboring (vacant) plot. Runs for about 300' or so, and there's a
    > boundary marker either side of the woods.
    >
    > I'd quite like to add a few more markers within the trees, just so we know
    > where the boundary is (and maybe fence at a later date) - question is, how
    > to mark it out? The woodland's too dense to see through to the other side,
    > even at night with a flashlight on one of the markers, so I can't just
    > walk and "home in" on it.
    >
    > I'm not sure that GPS is accurate enough to do it that way - any other
    > clever tricks?
    >
    > Did wonder about running two lines, meeting at one of the markers. All I
    > need to do is get them straight through the trees (which might be a
    > challenge in itself) - then I can presumably measure distance from each
    > to the other marker at the far end, translate that to a scrap of paper,
    > and calculate where the "true line" is between the two markers for any
    > given distance along one of my guide lines. Does that make sense? Maybe
    > there's a simpler way, though...
    >
    > Ideas on a postcard, or on usenet, whichever is easier.


    I did a fairly good job finding my lines using an "engineers compass"
    and a plot plan. The "engineers compass" is like a tiny cheap hand held
    version of a transit, but worse, it came from WalMart. Very very basic.
    Wait for all the leaves to fall. I went to the one and only corner
    marker I could find and using the compass turned the plat map so North
    is North. Aimed the compass site using the compass markings and lining
    it up with the line on my map. Sighted through a tiny lens and a single
    cross hair as far as the next tree it hit. Walked to that tree and did
    it again. Kept doing that until I found the other corner markers, and
    in 600 or so feet I was off by 6 feet. Sure that's a lot for some
    things but I just wanted an idea of were the corner of my property was,
    and there it was, well marked.

    Turns out the other land owner had some pro's come through a couple
    months later. He showed me one place I had marked, about half way
    between corners, I was off by only 6 inches there and he acted like that
    was a lot. Only reason I ended up 6 feet off in the end was due to the
    terrain. A lot of it was literally stretching and climbing up the
    mountain a couple feet at a time and getting myself on the uphill side
    of the next tree to rest against. I accidentally rode down the mountain
    on my ass with a shit load of leaves under me and in front of my feet.
    It was kind of fun.

    As far as markers, they use an ax and take off the topmost part of the
    bark, it didn't get down to fresh wood. Then those spots were painted
    blue. Some with 4 blue lines like a square, some just 1 or 2 marks.
    I'm guessing the marks meant something that had to do with were the
    exact property line was... in front or in back of the tree.

    There was one spot where I am close to the property line and they marked
    it with the 4 blue marks and a small yellow no trespassing sign in the
    middle. It seemed to stick out like a sore thumb and from the driveway
    it drew your attention. So I mixed up some mud, real mud, dirt and
    water, and plastered over the blue marks. And I got a few large leaves
    to stick on the nail holding the little sign. Now I don't see it, but
    it's still easy to find if you are close and looking for it.
     
    Tony, Nov 19, 2009
    #7
  8. Jules

    DerbyDad03 Guest

    On Nov 19, 4:42 pm, Jules <>
    wrote:
    > We've got a bunch of woodland that's partly on our property and partly on
    > a neighboring (vacant) plot. Runs for about 300' or so, and there's a
    > boundary marker either side of the woods.
    >
    > I'd quite like to add a few more markers within the trees, just so we know
    > where the boundary is (and maybe fence at a later date) - question is, how
    > to mark it out? The woodland's too dense to see through to the other side,
    > even at night with a flashlight on one of the markers, so I can't just
    > walk and "home in" on it.
    >
    > I'm not sure that GPS is accurate enough to do it that way - any other
    > clever tricks?
    >
    > Did wonder about running two lines, meeting at one of the markers. All I
    > need to do is get them straight through the trees (which might be a
    > challenge in itself) - then I can presumably measure distance from each
    > to the other marker at the far end, translate that to a scrap of paper,
    > and calculate where the "true line" is between the two markers for any
    > given distance along one of my guide lines. Does that make sense? Maybe
    > there's a simpler way, though...
    >
    > Ideas on a postcard, or on usenet, whichever is easier.
    >
    > cheers
    >
    > Jules


    How tall is the tallest tree between the markers?

    The products shown here range from 18 feet (Sale Price: $6,050) to 41
    feet (Sale Price: $28,315).

    http://www.artificialplantsandtrees.com/Trees/Big_Trees/big_trees.html

    Buy 2 that are just higher than the tallest existing tree, tie a
    string to the top of each one and stand them up right next to the
    markers..

    QED
     
    DerbyDad03, Nov 19, 2009
    #8
  9. The only thing comes to mind to me. Use a high power laser,
    and burn through the trees and leaves. There should be
    enough visible burn damage to follow with the string.

    No, I don't have a high power laser listed on Ebay for such
    a purpose.

    I doubt this is workable, but it's fun to imagine.

    --
    Christopher A. Young
    Learn more about Jesus
    www.lds.org
    ..


    "Jules" <> wrote
    in message
    news:p...

    We've got a bunch of woodland that's partly on our property
    and partly on
    a neighboring (vacant) plot. Runs for about 300' or so, and
    there's a
    boundary marker either side of the woods.

    I'd quite like to add a few more markers within the trees,
    just so we know
    where the boundary is (and maybe fence at a later date) -
    question is, how
    to mark it out? The woodland's too dense to see through to
    the other side,
    even at night with a flashlight on one of the markers, so I
    can't just
    walk and "home in" on it.

    I'm not sure that GPS is accurate enough to do it that way -
    any other
    clever tricks?

    Did wonder about running two lines, meeting at one of the
    markers. All I
    need to do is get them straight through the trees (which
    might be a
    challenge in itself) - then I can presumably measure
    distance from each
    to the other marker at the far end, translate that to a
    scrap of paper,
    and calculate where the "true line" is between the two
    markers for any
    given distance along one of my guide lines. Does that make
    sense? Maybe
    there's a simpler way, though...

    Ideas on a postcard, or on usenet, whichever is easier.

    cheers

    Jules
     
    Stormin Mormon, Nov 20, 2009
    #9
  10. Jules

    Guest

    well the buyer will normally have to get their purchase surveyed. you
    might be able to get their surveyor to stake the line for a few extra
    bucks,,

    espically if you are planning on a fence
     
    , Nov 20, 2009
    #10
  11. Jules

    mm Guest

    On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:21:44 -0500, wrote:

    >On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:08:45 -0600, Jules
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:54:28 -0500, Kurt Ullman wrote:
    >>> You did not say why.

    >>
    >>Ahh, there's a possibility that the vacant lot is going to be sold, so I
    >>figured I should maybe mark the line a bit better than just the two
    >>boundary poles. The lot's shaped such that any buyer would be unlikely to
    >>pull trees down to put a building in (it's about 4 acres I think and the
    >>extra effort of taking down an acre of trees doesn't seem sensible) - but
    >>some folk can be strange :)
    >>
    >>We might just buy it ourselves eventually, but have too many financial
    >>commitments for the next 3 months to think about that (OTOH once the snow
    >>hits I bet it won't get much interest until next Spring)
    >>
    >>> If you want to
    >>> actually do something like build a fence, etc., then you probably should
    >>> get it surveyed.

    >>
    >>Yes, calling in a professional is one option, although I'm curious how
    >>they do it when they don't have line-of-sight either. I doubt 6" either
    >>way is any big deal (it's just not the sort of place where people get
    >>pissed about that kind of thing!) but I'm not sure if GPS is quite that
    >>accurate (at least not the civilian stuff)
    >>
    >>cheers
    >>
    >>Jules

    >
    >No, a GPS is definitely not accurate enough for that purpose.


    The surveyor I talked to during the summer told me that his old model
    was accurate to an inch, and his new model to a tenth of an inch.

    I think these were 20 to 40,000 dollars, but still they meet the
    definition of a GPS. :)
     
    mm, Nov 20, 2009
    #11
  12. Jules

    JayB Guest

    "Jules" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:19:25 -0500, salty wrote:
    >> Run a line parallel to the existing markers but outside the wooded
    >> area. Then from any point you like on the reference line, measure
    >> perpendicular into the woods the same length as the offset of the
    >> outside line from the end markers.

    >
    > Aha - yes, that's a good plan. There are really too many buildings on our
    > side of the line to do that, but I can do it from the vacant plot (the
    > folk who own it currently are good enough that I know they won't mind)
    >


    Since the lot next door isn't wooded, that's your solution.

    I once worked for a survey company for a few days (a long time ago) and my
    job was to cut "sight lines" through a wooded lot that was going to be
    surveyed. It was no fun -- mostly just hacking away brush and small trees
    to be able to see from one end of the lot to the other. It involved
    multiple sight lines because the survey had to also show the elevation of
    the land on the interior section. I guess there were no other magic tricks
    the surveyor could do so he had to pay us to chop sight lines all day long
    for a few days. We were doing it in the middle of a hot summer.

    If you do end up having to chop any sight lines, it will be a lot easier if
    you can wait until winter after all of the leaves have fallen off the trees.
     
    JayB, Nov 20, 2009
    #12
  13. Jules

    Guest

    On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:05:24 -0500, mm <>
    wrote:

    >On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:21:44 -0500, wrote:
    >
    >>On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:08:45 -0600, Jules
    >><> wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:54:28 -0500, Kurt Ullman wrote:
    >>>> You did not say why.
    >>>
    >>>Ahh, there's a possibility that the vacant lot is going to be sold, so I
    >>>figured I should maybe mark the line a bit better than just the two
    >>>boundary poles. The lot's shaped such that any buyer would be unlikely to
    >>>pull trees down to put a building in (it's about 4 acres I think and the
    >>>extra effort of taking down an acre of trees doesn't seem sensible) - but
    >>>some folk can be strange :)
    >>>
    >>>We might just buy it ourselves eventually, but have too many financial
    >>>commitments for the next 3 months to think about that (OTOH once the snow
    >>>hits I bet it won't get much interest until next Spring)
    >>>
    >>>> If you want to
    >>>> actually do something like build a fence, etc., then you probably should
    >>>> get it surveyed.
    >>>
    >>>Yes, calling in a professional is one option, although I'm curious how
    >>>they do it when they don't have line-of-sight either. I doubt 6" either
    >>>way is any big deal (it's just not the sort of place where people get
    >>>pissed about that kind of thing!) but I'm not sure if GPS is quite that
    >>>accurate (at least not the civilian stuff)
    >>>
    >>>cheers
    >>>
    >>>Jules

    >>
    >>No, a GPS is definitely not accurate enough for that purpose.

    >
    >The surveyor I talked to during the summer told me that his old model
    >was accurate to an inch, and his new model to a tenth of an inch.
    >
    >I think these were 20 to 40,000 dollars, but still they meet the
    >definition of a GPS. :)


    I seriously doubt the OP was talking about the very expensive and
    accurate type of GPS used for surveying. I'm not sure one would work
    for his particular application anyway, as those units need open sky
    above to achieve that accuracy. This is a thick grove of trees...
     
    , Nov 20, 2009
    #13
  14. Jules

    mm Guest

    On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:34:45 -0500, wrote:

    >On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:05:24 -0500, mm <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:21:44 -0500, wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:08:45 -0600, Jules
    >>><> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:54:28 -0500, Kurt Ullman wrote:
    >>>>> You did not say why.
    >>>>
    >>>>Ahh, there's a possibility that the vacant lot is going to be sold, so I
    >>>>figured I should maybe mark the line a bit better than just the two
    >>>>boundary poles. The lot's shaped such that any buyer would be unlikely to
    >>>>pull trees down to put a building in (it's about 4 acres I think and the
    >>>>extra effort of taking down an acre of trees doesn't seem sensible) - but
    >>>>some folk can be strange :)
    >>>>
    >>>>We might just buy it ourselves eventually, but have too many financial
    >>>>commitments for the next 3 months to think about that (OTOH once the snow
    >>>>hits I bet it won't get much interest until next Spring)
    >>>>
    >>>>> If you want to
    >>>>> actually do something like build a fence, etc., then you probably should
    >>>>> get it surveyed.
    >>>>
    >>>>Yes, calling in a professional is one option, although I'm curious how
    >>>>they do it when they don't have line-of-sight either. I doubt 6" either
    >>>>way is any big deal (it's just not the sort of place where people get
    >>>>pissed about that kind of thing!) but I'm not sure if GPS is quite that
    >>>>accurate (at least not the civilian stuff)
    >>>>
    >>>>cheers
    >>>>
    >>>>Jules
    >>>
    >>>No, a GPS is definitely not accurate enough for that purpose.

    >>
    >>The surveyor I talked to during the summer told me that his old model
    >>was accurate to an inch, and his new model to a tenth of an inch.
    >>
    >>I think these were 20 to 40,000 dollars, but still they meet the
    >>definition of a GPS. :)

    >
    >I seriously doubt the OP was talking about the very expensive and
    >accurate type of GPS used for surveying. I'm not sure one would work
    >for his particular application anyway, as those units need open sky
    >above to achieve that accuracy. This is a thick grove of trees...


    Good point. Not sure but maybe I just wanted to tell about how good
    the expensive ones are.
     
    mm, Nov 20, 2009
    #14
  15. Jules

    Guest

    On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:30:26 -0500, willshak <>
    wrote:

    >on 11/19/2009 9:34 PM (ET) wrote the following:
    >> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:05:24 -0500, mm <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:21:44 -0500, wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:08:45 -0600, Jules
    >>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:54:28 -0500, Kurt Ullman wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> You did not say why.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> Ahh, there's a possibility that the vacant lot is going to be sold, so I
    >>>>> figured I should maybe mark the line a bit better than just the two
    >>>>> boundary poles. The lot's shaped such that any buyer would be unlikely to
    >>>>> pull trees down to put a building in (it's about 4 acres I think and the
    >>>>> extra effort of taking down an acre of trees doesn't seem sensible) - but
    >>>>> some folk can be strange :)
    >>>>>
    >>>>> We might just buy it ourselves eventually, but have too many financial
    >>>>> commitments for the next 3 months to think about that (OTOH once the snow
    >>>>> hits I bet it won't get much interest until next Spring)
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> If you want to
    >>>>>> actually do something like build a fence, etc., then you probably should
    >>>>>> get it surveyed.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> Yes, calling in a professional is one option, although I'm curious how
    >>>>> they do it when they don't have line-of-sight either. I doubt 6" either
    >>>>> way is any big deal (it's just not the sort of place where people get
    >>>>> pissed about that kind of thing!) but I'm not sure if GPS is quite that
    >>>>> accurate (at least not the civilian stuff)
    >>>>>
    >>>>> cheers
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Jules
    >>>>>
    >>>> No, a GPS is definitely not accurate enough for that purpose.
    >>>>
    >>> The surveyor I talked to during the summer told me that his old model
    >>> was accurate to an inch, and his new model to a tenth of an inch.
    >>>
    >>> I think these were 20 to 40,000 dollars, but still they meet the
    >>> definition of a GPS. :)
    >>>

    >>
    >> I seriously doubt the OP was talking about the very expensive and
    >> accurate type of GPS used for surveying. I'm not sure one would work
    >> for his particular application anyway, as those units need open sky
    >> above to achieve that accuracy. This is a thick grove of trees...

    >
    >Not only that but public grade GPSs can be off by a meter (3' 3")


    As has been pointed out, surveyors have GPS devices that cost a lot of
    money, and are accurate to 5 millimeters. We are not talking about
    inexpensive consumer units that tell you to turn left when the road
    curves right.
     
    , Nov 20, 2009
    #15
  16. Jules

    Guest

    On Nov 20, 5:58�am, wrote:
    > On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:30:26 -0500, willshak <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >on 11/19/2009 9:34 PM (ET) wrote the following:
    > >> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:05:24 -0500, mm <>
    > >> wrote:

    >
    > >>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:21:44 -0500, wrote:

    >
    > >>>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:08:45 -0600, Jules
    > >>>> <> wrote:

    >
    > >>>>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:54:28 -0500, Kurt Ullman wrote:

    >
    > >>>>>> � � � You did not say why.

    >
    > >>>>> Ahh, there's a possibility that the vacant lot is going to be sold,so I
    > >>>>> figured I should maybe mark the line a bit better than just the two
    > >>>>> boundary poles. The lot's shaped such that any buyer would be unlikely to
    > >>>>> pull trees down to put a building in (it's about 4 acres I think and the
    > >>>>> extra effort of taking down an acre of trees doesn't seem sensible)- but
    > >>>>> some folk can be strange :)

    >
    > >>>>> We might just buy it ourselves eventually, but have too many financial
    > >>>>> commitments for the next 3 months to think about that (OTOH once the snow
    > >>>>> hits I bet it won't get much interest until next Spring)

    >
    > >>>>>> If you want to
    > >>>>>> actually do something like build a fence, etc., then you probably should
    > >>>>>> get it surveyed.

    >
    > >>>>> Yes, calling in a professional is one option, although I'm curious how
    > >>>>> they do it when they don't have line-of-sight either. I doubt 6" either
    > >>>>> way is any big deal (it's just not the sort of place where people get
    > >>>>> pissed about that kind of thing!) but I'm not sure if GPS is quite that
    > >>>>> accurate (at least not the civilian stuff)

    >
    > >>>>> cheers

    >
    > >>>>> Jules

    >
    > >>>> No, a GPS is definitely not accurate enough for that purpose.

    >
    > >>> The surveyor I talked to during the summer told me that his old model
    > >>> was accurate to an inch, and his new model to a tenth of an inch.

    >
    > >>> I think these were 20 to 40,000 dollars, but still they meet the
    > >>> definition of a GPS. �:)

    >
    > >> I seriously doubt the OP was talking about the very expensive and
    > >> accurate type of GPS used for surveying. I'm not sure one would work
    > >> for his particular application anyway, as those units need open sky
    > >> above to achieve that accuracy. This is a thick grove of trees...

    >
    > >Not only that but public grade GPSs can be off by a meter (3' 3")

    >
    > As has been pointed out, surveyors have GPS devices that cost a lot of
    > money, and are accurate to 5 millimeters. We are not talking about
    > inexpensive consumer units that tell you to turn left when the road
    > curves right.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    wonder if you can rent one of those super dooper GPS units?
     
    , Nov 20, 2009
    #16
  17. Jules

    Guest

    On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:03:39 -0800 (PST), ""
    <> wrote:

    >On Nov 20, 5:58?am, wrote:
    >> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:30:26 -0500, willshak <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> >on 11/19/2009 9:34 PM (ET) wrote the following:
    >> >> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:05:24 -0500, mm <>
    >> >> wrote:

    >>
    >> >>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:21:44 -0500, wrote:

    >>
    >> >>>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:08:45 -0600, Jules
    >> >>>> <> wrote:

    >>
    >> >>>>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:54:28 -0500, Kurt Ullman wrote:

    >>
    >> >>>>>> ? ? ? You did not say why.

    >>
    >> >>>>> Ahh, there's a possibility that the vacant lot is going to be sold, so I
    >> >>>>> figured I should maybe mark the line a bit better than just the two
    >> >>>>> boundary poles. The lot's shaped such that any buyer would be unlikely to
    >> >>>>> pull trees down to put a building in (it's about 4 acres I think and the
    >> >>>>> extra effort of taking down an acre of trees doesn't seem sensible) - but
    >> >>>>> some folk can be strange :)

    >>
    >> >>>>> We might just buy it ourselves eventually, but have too many financial
    >> >>>>> commitments for the next 3 months to think about that (OTOH once the snow
    >> >>>>> hits I bet it won't get much interest until next Spring)

    >>
    >> >>>>>> If you want to
    >> >>>>>> actually do something like build a fence, etc., then you probably should
    >> >>>>>> get it surveyed.

    >>
    >> >>>>> Yes, calling in a professional is one option, although I'm curious how
    >> >>>>> they do it when they don't have line-of-sight either. I doubt 6" either
    >> >>>>> way is any big deal (it's just not the sort of place where people get
    >> >>>>> pissed about that kind of thing!) but I'm not sure if GPS is quite that
    >> >>>>> accurate (at least not the civilian stuff)

    >>
    >> >>>>> cheers

    >>
    >> >>>>> Jules

    >>
    >> >>>> No, a GPS is definitely not accurate enough for that purpose.

    >>
    >> >>> The surveyor I talked to during the summer told me that his old model
    >> >>> was accurate to an inch, and his new model to a tenth of an inch.

    >>
    >> >>> I think these were 20 to 40,000 dollars, but still they meet the
    >> >>> definition of a GPS. ?:)

    >>
    >> >> I seriously doubt the OP was talking about the very expensive and
    >> >> accurate type of GPS used for surveying. I'm not sure one would work
    >> >> for his particular application anyway, as those units need open sky
    >> >> above to achieve that accuracy. This is a thick grove of trees...

    >>
    >> >Not only that but public grade GPSs can be off by a meter (3' 3")

    >>
    >> As has been pointed out, surveyors have GPS devices that cost a lot of
    >> money, and are accurate to 5 millimeters. We are not talking about
    >> inexpensive consumer units that tell you to turn left when the road
    >> curves right.- Hide quoted text -
    >>
    >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    >wonder if you can rent one of those super dooper GPS units?


    Doubtful. You would also need to hire the guy that knows how to use
    it. At that point, you have basically hired a surveyor anyway, so
    what's the point?
     
    , Nov 20, 2009
    #17
  18. Jules

    Jules Guest

    On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:58:20 -0500, JimR wrote:
    > Your county tax assessor has a high def overhead (satellite) photograph of
    > your property, with the survey points marked. As government property it is
    > available to the public. If the photo was taken when the ground was visible
    > beneath the trees you may be able pick out enough points along the property
    > line to get a rather precise set of ground points.


    Interesting - didn't know that, and I think I'd quite like to get a copy
    anyway (whether it's useful or not), particularly if it's something that
    might be a few years old (we're on the central lot of what was once a
    farm, so have lots of farm buildings - but there were various ones that
    were pulled down before we moved in, so it'd be interesting to see an
    overhead view of the place before that happened)

    I guess as the boundaries don't change they don't retake photos that
    often.

    > It's possible that you can locate the corners yourself by zooming in on
    > Google maps -- I just checked it out and can on my house -- even though
    > there are a lot of trees blocking the view I can still pick out enough
    > landmarks to be able to draw a property line.


    No joy there unfortunately - we're pretty much out in the wilds so it's an
    area where they haven't done high-res data yet. I'm kind of hoping they
    don't until after I re-roof the barn, then I can leave them a nice message
    on the top ;)

    cheers

    Jules
     
    Jules, Nov 20, 2009
    #18
  19. Jules

    Jules Guest

    On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:32:44 -0500, JayB wrote:

    > "Jules" <> wrote in message
    > news:p...
    >> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:19:25 -0500, salty wrote:
    >>> Run a line parallel to the existing markers but outside the wooded
    >>> area. Then from any point you like on the reference line, measure
    >>> perpendicular into the woods the same length as the offset of the
    >>> outside line from the end markers.

    >>
    >> Aha - yes, that's a good plan. There are really too many buildings on our
    >> side of the line to do that, but I can do it from the vacant plot (the
    >> folk who own it currently are good enough that I know they won't mind)
    >>

    >
    > Since the lot next door isn't wooded, that's your solution.


    Well, the wooded area does extend maybe 100' into the next-door lot, but
    that's not too bad I think. I suspect if I do that to get my line close
    (it might wobble a bit) I can straighten it up once it's 'drawn'.

    > If you do end up having to chop any sight lines, it will be a lot easier
    > if you can wait until winter after all of the leaves have fallen off the
    > trees.


    Uh huh. Of course if I were to put a fence through I'd need to do
    some chopping anyway :) But I'll hold off on the fence as it depends who
    buys the lot (which may end up being us anyway) and it seems a shame to
    clear a path if it's not needed. Our dogs sometimes wander onto that lot
    though which is the only reason I might decide to fence it.

    cheers

    Jules
     
    Jules, Nov 20, 2009
    #19
  20. Jules

    DerbyDad03 Guest

    On Nov 20, 8:08 am, wrote:
    > On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:03:39 -0800 (PST), ""
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > <> wrote:
    > >On Nov 20, 5:58?am, wrote:
    > >> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:30:26 -0500, willshak <>
    > >> wrote:

    >
    > >> >on 11/19/2009 9:34 PM (ET) wrote the following:
    > >> >> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:05:24 -0500, mm <>
    > >> >> wrote:

    >
    > >> >>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:21:44 -0500, wrote:

    >
    > >> >>>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:08:45 -0600, Jules
    > >> >>>> <> wrote:

    >
    > >> >>>>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:54:28 -0500, Kurt Ullman wrote:

    >
    > >> >>>>>> ? ? ? You did not say why.

    >
    > >> >>>>> Ahh, there's a possibility that the vacant lot is going to be sold, so I
    > >> >>>>> figured I should maybe mark the line a bit better than just the two
    > >> >>>>> boundary poles. The lot's shaped such that any buyer would be unlikely to
    > >> >>>>> pull trees down to put a building in (it's about 4 acres I thinkand the
    > >> >>>>> extra effort of taking down an acre of trees doesn't seem sensible) - but
    > >> >>>>> some folk can be strange :)

    >
    > >> >>>>> We might just buy it ourselves eventually, but have too many financial
    > >> >>>>> commitments for the next 3 months to think about that (OTOH oncethe snow
    > >> >>>>> hits I bet it won't get much interest until next Spring)

    >
    > >> >>>>>> If you want to
    > >> >>>>>> actually do something like build a fence, etc., then you probably should
    > >> >>>>>> get it surveyed.

    >
    > >> >>>>> Yes, calling in a professional is one option, although I'm curious how
    > >> >>>>> they do it when they don't have line-of-sight either. I doubt 6"either
    > >> >>>>> way is any big deal (it's just not the sort of place where people get
    > >> >>>>> pissed about that kind of thing!) but I'm not sure if GPS is quite that
    > >> >>>>> accurate (at least not the civilian stuff)

    >
    > >> >>>>> cheers

    >
    > >> >>>>> Jules

    >
    > >> >>>> No, a GPS is definitely not accurate enough for that purpose.

    >
    > >> >>> The surveyor I talked to during the summer told me that his old model
    > >> >>> was accurate to an inch, and his new model to a tenth of an inch.

    >
    > >> >>> I think these were 20 to 40,000 dollars, but still they meet the
    > >> >>> definition of a GPS. ?:)

    >
    > >> >> I seriously doubt the OP was talking about the very expensive and
    > >> >> accurate type of GPS used for surveying. I'm not sure one would work
    > >> >> for his particular application anyway, as those units need open sky
    > >> >> above to achieve that accuracy. This is a thick grove of trees...

    >
    > >> >Not only that but public grade GPSs can be off by a meter (3' 3")

    >
    > >> As has been pointed out, surveyors have GPS devices that cost a lot of
    > >> money, and are accurate to 5 millimeters. We are not talking about
    > >> inexpensive consumer units that tell you to turn left when the road
    > >> curves right.- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > >wonder if you can rent one of those super dooper GPS units?

    >
    > Doubtful. You would also need to hire the guy that knows how to use
    > it. At that point, you have basically hired a surveyor anyway, so
    > what's the point?- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    re: "so what's the point?"

    The point is that this is a DIY group. ;-)

    Money is not the point - it's the thrill of the fight!
     
    DerbyDad03, Nov 20, 2009
    #20
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