Replacing toilet syphon?

Discussion in 'UK DIY' started by D.M.Chapman, Sep 21, 2010.

  1. D.M.Chapman

    D.M.Chapman Guest

    Day off work tomorrow so as I'm the only one at home it seems the ideal
    time to sort out the loo while it's still only hard to flush, and before
    it becomes impossible :)

    Close coupled (I think, cistern sits on the back of the pan with no pipe)
    toilet - pretty standard AFAIK.

    toolstation appear to have two options:

    http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/Toilet Fittings/Dual Flush Syphon 8/d20/sd2835/p77721

    a) how do I tell which of the two I need? What is the measurement - height of
    the syphon?

    b) is that the correct thing? It looks like it has a large plastic nut on
    the bottom - how does that work with the cistern? Is there a hollow in the
    bottom that this will be hidden up in?

    c) what's an Epson syphon?
    http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/Toilet Fittings/Epson Syphon 8/d20/sd2835/p52164

    c) to fit it I'll need to remove the cistern. I assume there is some seal
    on the bottom that I'll need to replace. Should I get one of
    http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/Toilet Fittings/Close Coupling Kit Metal/d20/sd2835/p85615

    ?

    Pointers and tips before I start? :)

    Ta,

    Darren
    D.M.Chapman, Sep 21, 2010
    #1
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  2. HI Darren

    If you can find a 'real' plumbers' supplies place - then yuo may be able
    to buy just the diaphragm (which is the likely cause of the 'unreliable
    flush' problem.

    I've done this on our two toilets here - process is generally like this...

    - turn off the water that supplies the WC
    - flush the toilet
    - empty the remaining water from the cistern (sponge works well)
    - remove the flush handle and associated mechanism
    - unscrew the two screws at the back of the cistern holding the cistern
    to the wall (often easier said than done - a short stubby screwdriver
    can help)
    - undo the two nuts or wingnuts holding the cistern to the pan
    - lift the cistern off the pan and sit it on the floor on some olf towels
    - undo the large plastic nut, which retains bracket that holds the two
    bolts that secure the cistern to the pan
    - remove the syphon mechanism

    At this point - either take the whole lot to your supplier and get a
    matching replacement, or take out the plastic diaphragm, and get a
    replacement for that.

    Then refit the new / repaired siphon mechanism
    and 'reassembly is the reverse of disassembly' as they used to say in
    the Haynes Manuals...

    You might need a new big foam washer that the big plastic nut fits into
    - or you might be able to re-use the original one

    Hope this helps
    Adrian



    On 21/09/2010 20:32, D.M.Chapman wrote:
    > Day off work tomorrow so as I'm the only one at home it seems the ideal
    > time to sort out the loo while it's still only hard to flush, and before
    > it becomes impossible :)
    >
    > Close coupled (I think, cistern sits on the back of the pan with no pipe)
    > toilet - pretty standard AFAIK.
    >
    > toolstation appear to have two options:
    >
    > http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/Toilet Fittings/Dual Flush Syphon 8/d20/sd2835/p77721
    >
    > a) how do I tell which of the two I need? What is the measurement - height of
    > the syphon?
    >
    > b) is that the correct thing? It looks like it has a large plastic nut on
    > the bottom - how does that work with the cistern? Is there a hollow in the
    > bottom that this will be hidden up in?
    >
    > c) what's an Epson syphon?
    > http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/Toilet Fittings/Epson Syphon 8/d20/sd2835/p52164
    >
    > c) to fit it I'll need to remove the cistern. I assume there is some seal
    > on the bottom that I'll need to replace. Should I get one of
    > http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/Toilet Fittings/Close Coupling Kit Metal/d20/sd2835/p85615
    >
    > ?
    >
    > Pointers and tips before I start? :)
    >
    > Ta,
    >
    > Darren
    >
    >
    >
    Adrian Brentnall, Sep 21, 2010
    #2
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  3. D.M.Chapman

    D.M.Chapman Guest

    In article <i7b22v$pf7$-september.org>,
    Adrian Brentnall <> wrote:
    >HI Darren
    >
    >If you can find a 'real' plumbers' supplies place - then yuo may be able
    >to buy just the diaphragm (which is the likely cause of the 'unreliable
    >flush' problem.


    I suspect it is - but I'd quite like to replace it with a more efficient
    dual flush syphon if possible. We've been moved onto a water meter so if I've
    got to take it all apart I might as well take the opportunity to fit one
    that's a bit less wasteful!

    >I've done this on our two toilets here - process is generally like this...
    >
    >- turn off the water that supplies the WC
    >- flush the toilet
    >- empty the remaining water from the cistern (sponge works well)
    >- remove the flush handle and associated mechanism
    >- unscrew the two screws at the back of the cistern holding the cistern
    >to the wall (often easier said than done - a short stubby screwdriver
    >can help)
    >- undo the two nuts or wingnuts holding the cistern to the pan
    >- lift the cistern off the pan and sit it on the floor on some olf towels
    >- undo the large plastic nut, which retains bracket that holds the two
    >bolts that secure the cistern to the pan


    Ah, so this is the thing that toolstation list. Sounds like I shouldn't
    need a new one of those then.

    >You might need a new big foam washer that the big plastic nut fits into
    >- or you might be able to re-use the original one


    one of

    http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/Washers Fixings/Doughnut CC Kit Washer/d20/sd2703/p39353

    ?

    For that price I'll pick one up in case :)

    Darren
    D.M.Chapman, Sep 21, 2010
    #3
  4. HI Darren

    On 21/09/2010 21:07, D.M.Chapman wrote:
    > In article<i7b22v$pf7$-september.org>,
    > Adrian Brentnall<> wrote:
    >> HI Darren
    >>
    >> If you can find a 'real' plumbers' supplies place - then yuo may be able
    >> to buy just the diaphragm (which is the likely cause of the 'unreliable
    >> flush' problem.

    >
    > I suspect it is - but I'd quite like to replace it with a more efficient
    > dual flush syphon if possible. We've been moved onto a water meter so if I've
    > got to take it all apart I might as well take the opportunity to fit one
    > that's a bit less wasteful!


    Ah - fair enough - our cisterns were dual-flush already ,g>

    >
    >> I've done this on our two toilets here - process is generally like this...
    >>
    >> - turn off the water that supplies the WC
    >> - flush the toilet
    >> - empty the remaining water from the cistern (sponge works well)
    >> - remove the flush handle and associated mechanism
    >> - unscrew the two screws at the back of the cistern holding the cistern
    >> to the wall (often easier said than done - a short stubby screwdriver
    >> can help)
    >> - undo the two nuts or wingnuts holding the cistern to the pan
    >> - lift the cistern off the pan and sit it on the floor on some olf towels
    >> - undo the large plastic nut, which retains bracket that holds the two
    >> bolts that secure the cistern to the pan

    >
    > Ah, so this is the thing that toolstation list. Sounds like I shouldn't
    > need a new one of those then.


    All depends how easily the old one comes off - it's a big thing, and
    fairly fragile as well (when you have that big Stilson on the end of it)
    - if it's your only toilet then you might want to get a 'spare
    everything' as insurance...?


    >
    >> You might need a new big foam washer that the big plastic nut fits into
    >> - or you might be able to re-use the original one

    >
    > one of
    >
    > http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/Washers Fixings/Doughnut CC Kit Washer/d20/sd2703/p39353
    >
    > ?


    Yes - that's the one.

    >
    > For that price I'll pick one up in case :)


    At that price you could even go for a spare as well !

    Good luck
    Adrian

    >
    > Darren
    >
    Adrian Brentnall, Sep 21, 2010
    #4
  5. D.M.Chapman wrote:
    > Day off work tomorrow so as I'm the only one at home it seems the
    > ideal
    > time to sort out the loo while it's still only hard to flush, and
    > before
    > it becomes impossible :)
    >
    > Close coupled (I think, cistern sits on the back of the pan with no
    > pipe) toilet - pretty standard AFAIK.


    Close coupled is the terminology. If it has a pipe its 'low level'

    > toolstation appear to have two options:
    >
    > http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/Toilet Fittings/Dual Flush Syphon 8/d20/sd2835/p77721
    >
    > a) how do I tell which of the two I need? What is the measurement -
    > height of the syphon?


    Its the distance between the base of the cistern & the top. Most are 9.5"
    IME, but do check.

    > b) is that the correct thing? It looks like it has a large plastic
    > nut on the bottom - how does that work with the cistern? Is there a
    > hollow in the bottom that this will be hidden up in?


    The photo shows a siphon as supplied - they come with the bits for close
    coupled and low level.

    > c) what's an Epson syphon?
    > http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/Toilet Fittings/Epson Syphon 8/d20/sd2835/p52164


    No idea :)

    > c) to fit it I'll need to remove the cistern. I assume there is some
    > seal
    > on the bottom that I'll need to replace. Should I get one of
    > http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/Toilet Fittings/Close Coupling Kit Metal/d20/sd2835/p85615
    >


    You will absolutely, definately, certainly, 100% need a new doughnut washer.
    Don't even think about using the old one.

    For £2.45 you might as well buy the kit - in case stuff has corroded.


    --
    Dave - The Medway Handyman
    www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
    The Medway Handyman, Sep 22, 2010
    #5
  6. Adrian Brentnall wrote:
    > HI Darren
    >
    > If you can find a 'real' plumbers' supplies place - then yuo may be
    > able to buy just the diaphragm (which is the likely cause of the
    > 'unreliable flush' problem.


    90% of the time it is the diaphragm - B&Q and Wickes sell them. However, it
    might be a split siphon body. Since the parts are cheap & its the same
    labour to do both, change the complete siphon.

    > I've done this on our two toilets here - process is generally like
    > this...
    > - turn off the water that supplies the WC
    > - flush the toilet
    > - empty the remaining water from the cistern (sponge works well)
    > - remove the flush handle and associated mechanism
    > - unscrew the two screws at the back of the cistern holding the
    > cistern to the wall (often easier said than done - a short stubby
    > screwdriver can help)
    > - undo the two nuts or wingnuts holding the cistern to the pan
    > - lift the cistern off the pan and sit it on the floor on some olf
    > towels - undo the large plastic nut, which retains bracket that holds the
    > two
    > bolts that secure the cistern to the pan
    > - remove the syphon mechanism
    >
    > At this point - either take the whole lot to your supplier and get a
    > matching replacement, or take out the plastic diaphragm, and get a
    > replacement for that.
    >
    > Then refit the new / repaired siphon mechanism
    > and 'reassembly is the reverse of disassembly' as they used to say in
    > the Haynes Manuals...
    >
    > You might need a new big foam washer that the big plastic nut fits
    > into - or you might be able to re-use the original one


    All agreed 100% - but don't whatever you do try to reuse the doughnut
    washer - almost 100% guaranteed to leak.


    --
    Dave - The Medway Handyman
    www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
    The Medway Handyman, Sep 22, 2010
    #6
  7. D.M.Chapman wrote:
    > In article <i7b22v$pf7$-september.org>,
    > Adrian Brentnall <> wrote:
    >> HI Darren
    >>
    >> If you can find a 'real' plumbers' supplies place - then yuo may be
    >> able to buy just the diaphragm (which is the likely cause of the
    >> 'unreliable flush' problem.

    >
    > I suspect it is - but I'd quite like to replace it with a more
    > efficient dual flush syphon if possible. We've been moved onto a
    > water meter so if I've got to take it all apart I might as well take
    > the opportunity to fit one that's a bit less wasteful!


    The ones you are looking at are only dual flush in as much as you can set
    them to flush one of two different volumes. If you want a true dual flush
    where you can choose you need something like a Wirquin Jollyflush
    http://www.pro-builder.tv/archiveproducts/heating/bathrooms/wirquin_jollyflush.html

    B&Q sell these as kits so you can replace the flush handle with a push
    button.


    --
    Dave - The Medway Handyman
    www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
    The Medway Handyman, Sep 22, 2010
    #7
  8. D.M.Chapman

    D.M.Chapman Guest

    In article <V0bmo.49$2>,
    The Medway Handyman <> wrote:
    >D.M.Chapman wrote:


    >> I suspect it is - but I'd quite like to replace it with a more
    >> efficient dual flush syphon if possible. We've been moved onto a
    >> water meter so if I've got to take it all apart I might as well take
    >> the opportunity to fit one that's a bit less wasteful!


    >The ones you are looking at are only dual flush in as much as you can set
    >them to flush one of two different volumes. If you want a true dual flush
    >where you can choose you need something like a Wirquin Jollyflush
    >http://www.pro-builder.tv/archiveproducts/heating/bathrooms/wirquin_jollyflush.html



    Ahhhhhhhhh..... Will go have a look for one of those then. I take it it's
    designed to replace the old style so the button will just fit through the
    handle hole?

    I seem to remember a friend fitting one yonks ago and needing to open up the
    hole a bit - my dremel is the other side of kent so that might be tricky :)


    >
    >B&Q sell these as kits so you can replace the flush handle with a push
    >button.


    Will investigate this morning, ta :)

    Darren
    D.M.Chapman, Sep 22, 2010
    #8
  9. D.M.Chapman

    D.M.Chapman Guest

    In article <XTamo.46$2>,
    The Medway Handyman <> wrote:

    >You will absolutely, definately, certainly, 100% need a new doughnut washer.
    >Don't even think about using the old one.


    Yep, I did :) The old one was certainly knackered!

    ended up fitting one of:

    http://www.screwfix.com/prods/51173...luidmaster-Push-Button-Cable-Dual-Flush-Valve

    B and Q had quite a selection - and none complete. Looks like someone had
    opened every pack and mixed bits up. Screwfix had that one in stock and
    it seems to have good reviews...

    So far so good, I'm not sure the flush has ever been quite so good :)


    >For £2.45 you might as well buy the kit - in case stuff has corroded.


    "in case stuff has corroded" is a bit of an understatement. One side it took
    me a while (laying on my back) attempting to work out what had happened
    to the wing nut. Seems it had largely rotted away. Hardly any "wings" left
    just a big mess of rust and strangly swollen rubber. Bosch multitool worth
    it's weight for that - just chopped the bloody thing off.

    Thankfully the other side which has even less access was fine and undid ok
    with a little plusgas to help.

    Sorted. Just got a bad back now from laying reaching around the back of
    the bog!

    Cheers all,

    Darren
    D.M.Chapman, Sep 22, 2010
    #9
  10. D.M.Chapman

    John Guest

    "D.M.Chapman" <dmc@puffin.> wrote in message
    news:i7d5fn$jc7$-september.org...
    > In article <XTamo.46$2>,
    > The Medway Handyman <> wrote:
    >
    >>You will absolutely, definately, certainly, 100% need a new doughnut
    >>washer.
    >>Don't even think about using the old one.

    >
    > Yep, I did :) The old one was certainly knackered!
    >
    > ended up fitting one of:
    >
    > http://www.screwfix.com/prods/51173...luidmaster-Push-Button-Cable-Dual-Flush-Valve
    >
    > B and Q had quite a selection - and none complete. Looks like someone had
    > opened every pack and mixed bits up. Screwfix had that one in stock and
    > it seems to have good reviews...
    >
    > So far so good, I'm not sure the flush has ever been quite so good :)
    >
    >
    >>For £2.45 you might as well buy the kit - in case stuff has corroded.

    >
    > "in case stuff has corroded" is a bit of an understatement. One side it
    > took
    > me a while (laying on my back) attempting to work out what had happened
    > to the wing nut. Seems it had largely rotted away. Hardly any "wings" left
    > just a big mess of rust and strangly swollen rubber. Bosch multitool worth
    > it's weight for that - just chopped the bloody thing off.
    >
    > Thankfully the other side which has even less access was fine and undid ok
    > with a little plusgas to help.
    >
    > Sorted. Just got a bad back now from laying reaching around the back of
    > the bog!
    >
    > Cheers all,
    >
    > Darren
    >
    >


    I hope you greased the threads so that next time they dismantle with ease.
    John, Sep 22, 2010
    #10
  11. D.M.Chapman

    D.M.Chapman Guest

    In article <3Fumo.536$2>,
    John <> wrote:

    >I hope you greased the threads so that next time they dismantle with ease.


    Yep, little bit of copper grease (was all I had around).

    Darren
    D.M.Chapman, Sep 23, 2010
    #11
  12. D.M.Chapman

    John Guest

    "D.M.Chapman" <dmc@puffin.> wrote in message
    news:i7ep6h$l4k$-september.org...
    > In article <3Fumo.536$2>,
    > John <> wrote:
    >
    >>I hope you greased the threads so that next time they dismantle with ease.

    >
    > Yep, little bit of copper grease (was all I had around).
    >
    > Darren
    >
    >


    Even better - well done!
    John, Sep 23, 2010
    #12
  13. D.M.Chapman

    ggaylmer

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    3
    Toilet flush

    Thanks everyone for the very helpful info on solving my toilet flush problems and replacing traditional with Screwfix Fluidmaster dual flush cable system.

    Chris.
    ggaylmer, May 20, 2012
    #13
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