Flue Pipe Slope?

Discussion in 'HVAC' started by Michael Cerkowski, Sep 14, 2005.

  1. We're having a new Thermopride oil-fired hot air furnace,
    and 13.0 SEER A/C system installed. The installers seem to
    want to cut corners, as they have moved the unit 3' farther
    from the chimney than the old furnace, which was about 4'
    from the chimney. I think they did this just so they wouldn't
    have to fabricate a new section of intake duct...

    Anyway, I haven't measured it precisely yet, because the
    new flue pipe isn't in, but it looks like the pipe will run
    roughly 8' from furnace to chimney, and rise only about 8"-12"
    in that distance. Is this safe, and will it provide adequate
    draft under all weather conditions? Will it accumulate more
    soot than a typical installation? Thanks in advance for any
    constructive advice.
    Michael Cerkowski, Sep 14, 2005
    #1
  2. Michael Cerkowski

    Noon-Air Guest

    Check with your local building inspector

    "Michael Cerkowski" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > We're having a new Thermopride oil-fired hot air furnace,
    > and 13.0 SEER A/C system installed. The installers seem to
    > want to cut corners, as they have moved the unit 3' farther
    > from the chimney than the old furnace, which was about 4'
    > from the chimney. I think they did this just so they wouldn't
    > have to fabricate a new section of intake duct...
    >
    > Anyway, I haven't measured it precisely yet, because the
    > new flue pipe isn't in, but it looks like the pipe will run
    > roughly 8' from furnace to chimney, and rise only about 8"-12"
    > in that distance. Is this safe, and will it provide adequate
    > draft under all weather conditions? Will it accumulate more
    > soot than a typical installation? Thanks in advance for any
    > constructive advice.
    Noon-Air, Sep 14, 2005
    #2
  3. Michael Cerkowski

    Oscar_Lives Guest

    "Michael Cerkowski" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > We're having a new Thermopride oil-fired hot air furnace,
    > and 13.0 SEER A/C system installed. The installers seem to
    > want to cut corners, as they have moved the unit 3' farther
    > from the chimney than the old furnace, which was about 4'
    > from the chimney. I think they did this just so they wouldn't
    > have to fabricate a new section of intake duct...
    >
    > Anyway, I haven't measured it precisely yet, because the
    > new flue pipe isn't in, but it looks like the pipe will run
    > roughly 8' from furnace to chimney, and rise only about 8"-12"
    > in that distance. Is this safe, and will it provide adequate
    > draft under all weather conditions? Will it accumulate more
    > soot than a typical installation? Thanks in advance for any
    > constructive advice.


    It should be OK if they went to the trouble to cut the corners. Most
    Thermoprides don't function well with corners in the intake or the flue
    pipes.
    Oscar_Lives, Sep 14, 2005
    #3
  4. Michael Cerkowski

    Guest

    On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:32:47 GMT, Michael Cerkowski <> wrote:

    >We're having a new Thermopride oil-fired hot air furnace,
    >and 13.0 SEER A/C system installed. The installers seem to
    >want to cut corners, as they have moved the unit 3' farther
    >from the chimney than the old furnace, which was about 4'
    >from the chimney. I think they did this just so they wouldn't
    >have to fabricate a new section of intake duct...
    >
    > Anyway, I haven't measured it precisely yet, because the
    >new flue pipe isn't in, but it looks like the pipe will run
    >roughly 8' from furnace to chimney, and rise only about 8"-12"
    >in that distance. Is this safe, and will it provide adequate
    >draft under all weather conditions? Will it accumulate more
    >soot than a typical installation? Thanks in advance for any
    >constructive advice.


    The best source of information you as a homeowner should concern yourself with
    regarding the installation of your new hvac system is found in the Uniform
    Mechanical Codes, your local Building Codes, AND the Manufacturers Installation
    Instructions, which are typically included in every piece of equipment.

    What is the construction of the chimney? Is there a liner inside? How high is
    the vertical portion? Bottom line, we cannot see it from behind our computer
    screens. Local Building Codes & Equipment Manufacturers Installation
    Instructions take precedent over internet advice.

    gofish
    , Sep 14, 2005
    #4
  5. Michael Cerkowski

    HvacKing Guest

    "Michael Cerkowski" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > We're having a new Thermopride oil-fired hot air furnace,
    > and 13.0 SEER A/C system installed. The installers seem to
    > want to cut corners, as they have moved the unit 3' farther
    > from the chimney than the old furnace, which was about 4'
    > from the chimney. I think they did this just so they wouldn't
    > have to fabricate a new section of intake duct...
    >
    > Anyway, I haven't measured it precisely yet, because the
    > new flue pipe isn't in, but it looks like the pipe will run
    > roughly 8' from furnace to chimney, and rise only about 8"-12"
    > in that distance. Is this safe, and will it provide adequate
    > draft under all weather conditions? Will it accumulate more
    > soot than a typical installation? Thanks in advance for any
    > constructive advice.


    1/4 inch rise per liner foot min so that would be 2 inches. At 8 -12 inches
    you should be fine.

    King
    HvacKing, Sep 14, 2005
    #5
  6. HvacKing wrote:
    >
    > "Michael Cerkowski" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > We're having a new Thermopride oil-fired hot air furnace,
    > > and 13.0 SEER A/C system installed. The installers seem to
    > > want to cut corners, as they have moved the unit 3' farther
    > > from the chimney than the old furnace, which was about 4'
    > > from the chimney. I think they did this just so they wouldn't
    > > have to fabricate a new section of intake duct...
    > >
    > > Anyway, I haven't measured it precisely yet, because the
    > > new flue pipe isn't in, but it looks like the pipe will run
    > > roughly 8' from furnace to chimney, and rise only about 8"-12"
    > > in that distance. Is this safe, and will it provide adequate
    > > draft under all weather conditions? Will it accumulate more
    > > soot than a typical installation? Thanks in advance for any
    > > constructive advice.

    >
    > 1/4 inch rise per liner foot min so that would be 2 inches. At 8 -12 inches
    > you should be fine.
    >
    > King



    Thanks. The flue (now installed) is 7 feet long. The vertical portion
    is,
    depending on how you measure it, 10.5" to 13.5". The rise over the
    entire length
    appears to be 3" or maybe 4". You're sure that this is ok? We get
    inversions
    here regularly in Winter (bottom of a river valley), and I don't want
    the
    furnace to smoke when it's zero degrees out - or ever! I have serious
    health
    problems.

    (I got the 8"-12" rise I originally posted from the height difference
    between the furnace flue 'stub' end and the chimney opening. The lower
    figure is because of the ~ 11" vertical section with the damper in it.)

    Now another area of concern: Thermopride specifies in the manual for
    the A/C unit (I downloaded the .pdf) that the minimum clearance for the
    comdensor unit from the house wall is 10" The had it placed with about
    that,
    but then angled it when they connected it, so the clearance is now a
    whopping
    2". Having paid an extra $1500 for the 13.00 SEER unit, I'm not happy
    with
    the idea of possible airflow restriction. What do you think? About 2'-3'
    of the
    intake area is now less than 10" from the wall.
    --







    http://freevision.org/michael/index.html
    Michael Cerkowski, Sep 14, 2005
    #6
  7. On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:43:56 GMT, Michael Cerkowski <>
    wrote:

    >
    > Now another area of concern: Thermopride specifies in the manual for


    Take this shit to alt.home.repair.



    >the A/C unit (I downloaded the .pdf) that the minimum clearance for the
    >comdensor unit from the house wall is 10" The had it placed with about
    >that,
    >but then angled it when they connected it, so the clearance is now a
    >whopping
    >2". Having paid an extra $1500 for the 13.00 SEER unit, I'm not happy
    >with
    >the idea of possible airflow restriction. What do you think? About 2'-3'
    >of the
    >intake area is now less than 10" from the wall.


    Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

    http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

    Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
    'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
    'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
    HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
    Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
    pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com, Sep 15, 2005
    #7
  8. Michael Cerkowski

    HvacKing Guest

    "Michael Cerkowski" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > HvacKing wrote:
    > >
    > > "Michael Cerkowski" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > > We're having a new Thermopride oil-fired hot air furnace,
    > > > and 13.0 SEER A/C system installed. The installers seem to
    > > > want to cut corners, as they have moved the unit 3' farther
    > > > from the chimney than the old furnace, which was about 4'
    > > > from the chimney. I think they did this just so they wouldn't
    > > > have to fabricate a new section of intake duct...
    > > >
    > > > Anyway, I haven't measured it precisely yet, because the
    > > > new flue pipe isn't in, but it looks like the pipe will run
    > > > roughly 8' from furnace to chimney, and rise only about 8"-12"
    > > > in that distance. Is this safe, and will it provide adequate
    > > > draft under all weather conditions? Will it accumulate more
    > > > soot than a typical installation? Thanks in advance for any
    > > > constructive advice.

    > >
    > > 1/4 inch rise per liner foot min so that would be 2 inches. At 8 -12

    inches
    > > you should be fine.
    > >
    > > King

    >
    >
    > Thanks. The flue (now installed) is 7 feet long. The vertical portion
    > is,
    > depending on how you measure it, 10.5" to 13.5". The rise over the
    > entire length
    > appears to be 3" or maybe 4". You're sure that this is ok? We get
    > inversions
    > here regularly in Winter (bottom of a river valley), and I don't want
    > the
    > furnace to smoke when it's zero degrees out - or ever! I have serious
    > health
    > problems.
    >
    > (I got the 8"-12" rise I originally posted from the height difference
    > between the furnace flue 'stub' end and the chimney opening. The lower
    > figure is because of the ~ 11" vertical section with the damper in it.)
    >
    > Now another area of concern: Thermopride specifies in the manual for
    > the A/C unit (I downloaded the .pdf) that the minimum clearance for the
    > comdensor unit from the house wall is 10" The had it placed with about
    > that,
    > but then angled it when they connected it, so the clearance is now a
    > whopping
    > 2". Having paid an extra $1500 for the 13.00 SEER unit, I'm not happy
    > with
    > the idea of possible airflow restriction. What do you think? About 2'-3'
    > of the
    > intake area is now less than 10" from the wall.
    > --
    >

    To your first question yes the rise sounds ok and the barometric damper, not
    DAMPNER, will compensate for fluctuating building pressures and provide for
    a constant negitive pressure of -.04" wc in the flue to facilitate draft.
    One thing I would make sure they do is a complete combustion analisis to
    ensure a clean burn and proper draft, (both overfire and flue draft) and
    ensure the furnace is performing to manufactures specs. If they are real
    pros they will provide a print out from the combustion analizer showing the
    results and the bottom line, the efficiency.

    Its very important to have a clean burning oil furnace. Otherwise you are
    going to think you found a long lost nephew, and he is a hvac tech, because
    youll be seeing a lot of him over this coming winter, usually late at night.
    :)

    To the second question I have to say they sound a little sloppy and you
    should have them move the condenser to proper clearances. Also keep in mind
    that it should also be clear of any over hanging structure. Check your PDF
    for that information.

    If you really want to bust their balls and make them do the job right, make
    them do the required start up tests and provide a statement of performance
    showing that the a/c is preforming at 13 seer efficiency and your furnace is
    preforming at the rated efficiency of eighty something percent.

    You paid good money for promised professional work. I see no reason why you
    should not recieve it.

    Good luck.
    King

    P.S. Don't you wish I were your contractor? :)
    HvacKing, Sep 15, 2005
    #8
  9. Michael Cerkowski

    HvacKing Guest

    <pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:43:56 GMT, Michael Cerkowski <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > Now another area of concern: Thermopride specifies in the manual for

    >
    > Take this shit to alt.home.repair.
    >

    Take your shit to alt.shit

    King
    HvacKing, Sep 15, 2005
    #9
  10. Michael Cerkowski

    Steve Scott Guest

    If you check into this, I'm sure you'll find TP is looking for
    -0.02"wc draft over fire. NOT in the flue and not -0.04"wc. And the
    damper won't provide for a constant negative pressure of even -0.02"wc
    unless the draft in the chimney is sufficient to overcome whatever
    leakage there may be.

    On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:53:25 -0400, "HvacKing" <> wrote:

    >To your first question yes the rise sounds ok and the barometric damper, not
    >DAMPNER, will compensate for fluctuating building pressures and provide for
    >a constant negitive pressure of -.04" wc in the flue to facilitate draft.
    >One thing I would make sure they do is a complete combustion analisis to
    >ensure a clean burn and proper draft, (both overfire and flue draft) and
    >ensure the furnace is performing to manufactures specs. If they are real
    >pros they will provide a print out from the combustion analizer showing the
    >results and the bottom line, the efficiency.



    --
    The cream rises to the top. So does
    the scum...
    Steve Scott, Sep 15, 2005
    #10
  11. Michael Cerkowski

    Tekkie® Guest

    Michael Cerkowski posted for all of us...
    I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

    > We're having a new Thermopride oil-fired hot air furnace,
    > and 13.0 SEER A/C system installed. The installers seem to
    > want to cut corners, as they have moved the unit 3' farther
    > from the chimney than the old furnace, which was about 4'
    > from the chimney. I think they did this just so they wouldn't
    > have to fabricate a new section of intake duct...
    >
    > Anyway, I haven't measured it precisely yet, because the
    > new flue pipe isn't in, but it looks like the pipe will run
    > roughly 8' from furnace to chimney, and rise only about 8"-12"
    > in that distance. Is this safe, and will it provide adequate
    > draft under all weather conditions? Will it accumulate more
    > soot than a typical installation? Thanks in advance for any
    > constructive advice.
    >

    How will Santa Claus get in? It won't get too hot to burn the cookies and
    curdle the milk will it?
    --
    My boss said I was dumb and apathetic.
    I said I don't know and I don't care...
    Tekkie
    Tekkie®, Sep 15, 2005
    #11
  12. On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:26:10 -0400, Tekkie® <>
    wrote:

    >Michael Cerkowski posted for all of us...
    > I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.
    >
    >> We're having a new Thermopride oil-fired hot air furnace,
    >> and 13.0 SEER A/C system installed. The installers seem to
    >> want to cut corners, as they have moved the unit 3' farther
    >> from the chimney than the old furnace, which was about 4'
    >> from the chimney. I think they did this just so they wouldn't
    >> have to fabricate a new section of intake duct...
    >>
    >> Anyway, I haven't measured it precisely yet, because the
    >> new flue pipe isn't in, but it looks like the pipe will run
    >> roughly 8' from furnace to chimney, and rise only about 8"-12"
    >> in that distance. Is this safe, and will it provide adequate
    >> draft under all weather conditions? Will it accumulate more
    >> soot than a typical installation? Thanks in advance for any
    >> constructive advice.
    >>

    >How will Santa Claus get in? It won't get too hot to burn the cookies and
    >curdle the milk will it?


    Oh, I'm pretty sure it will burn his cookies no matter what
    .....

    Probably curdle his milk, too.


    Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

    http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

    Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
    'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
    'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
    HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
    Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
    pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com, Sep 15, 2005
    #12
  13. HvacKing wrote:
    >
    > "Michael Cerkowski" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > HvacKing wrote:

    (...)

    > > > 1/4 inch rise per liner foot min so that would be 2 inches. At 8 -12

    > inches
    > > > you should be fine.
    > > >
    > > > King

    > >
    > >
    > > Thanks. The flue (now installed) is 7 feet long. The vertical portion
    > > is,
    > > depending on how you measure it, 10.5" to 13.5". The rise over the
    > > entire length
    > > appears to be 3" or maybe 4". You're sure that this is ok? We get
    > > inversions
    > > here regularly in Winter (bottom of a river valley), and I don't want
    > > the
    > > furnace to smoke when it's zero degrees out - or ever! I have serious
    > > health
    > > problems.
    > >
    > > (I got the 8"-12" rise I originally posted from the height difference
    > > between the furnace flue 'stub' end and the chimney opening. The lower
    > > figure is because of the ~ 11" vertical section with the damper in it.)
    > >
    > > Now another area of concern: Thermopride specifies in the manual for
    > > the A/C unit (I downloaded the .pdf) that the minimum clearance for the
    > > comdensor unit from the house wall is 10" The had it placed with about
    > > that,
    > > but then angled it when they connected it, so the clearance is now a
    > > whopping
    > > 2". Having paid an extra $1500 for the 13.00 SEER unit, I'm not happy
    > > with
    > > the idea of possible airflow restriction. What do you think? About 2'-3'
    > > of the
    > > intake area is now less than 10" from the wall.
    > > --
    > >

    > To your first question yes the rise sounds ok and the barometric damper, not
    > DAMPNER, will compensate for fluctuating building pressures and provide for
    > a constant negitive pressure of -.04" wc in the flue to facilitate draft.
    > One thing I would make sure they do is a complete combustion analisis to
    > ensure a clean burn and proper draft, (both overfire and flue draft) and
    > ensure the furnace is performing to manufactures specs. If they are real
    > pros they will provide a print out from the combustion analizer showing the
    > results and the bottom line, the efficiency.


    They have been doing combustion tests with the annual service. Thanks
    for
    the reasurance on the flue pipe - I hate the smell of fuel oil, burned
    as
    well as liquid. It's also bad for me.

    >
    > Its very important to have a clean burning oil furnace. Otherwise you are
    > going to think you found a long lost nephew, and he is a hvac tech, because
    > youll be seeing a lot of him over this coming winter, usually late at night.
    > :)


    Yup, that's what I'm trying to avoid, although I'd expect problems at
    about 6:00am, because I sleep days. ;)

    >
    > To the second question I have to say they sound a little sloppy and you
    > should have them move the condenser to proper clearances. Also keep in mind
    > that it should also be clear of any over hanging structure. Check your PDF
    > for that information.


    The PDF gives clearances for various situations, including large
    overhangs
    (24"). 10" is the absolute minimum clearance they specify.

    >
    > If you really want to bust their balls and make them do the job right, make
    > them do the required start up tests and provide a statement of performance
    > showing that the a/c is preforming at 13 seer efficiency and your furnace is
    > preforming at the rated efficiency of eighty something percent.
    >
    > You paid good money for promised professional work. I see no reason why you
    > should not recieve it.
    >
    > Good luck.
    > King
    >

    I don't want to bust their balls - I just want the system we
    contracted for!
    $8k is a lot of money, which we didn't have lying around, and they seem
    more
    interested in setting it up for their ease of installation than for
    best
    operation. When they moved the furnace 3' east, they made access to a
    basement
    storeroom much tighter, and they ran the fuel line under the door -
    we're going
    to insist on a crush-guard there. So now we have a furnace by a door,
    with a large
    useless empty space to the left of it, there will be a humidifier drain
    line
    running about 15' over a doorsill to the sump pump, they put the furnace
    on 8
    bricks instead of the 6" blocks they verbally promised, and the A/C is
    is in the
    wrong place because they didn't want to move or add to the old slab.
    Aside from
    that, no problems at all...

    > P.S. Don't you wish I were your contractor? :)


    Based on what you've written here, yes. Thanks again for the advice.
    We'll
    ask for the efficiency tests, and tell them to move the A/C, next Spring
    if
    they wish. Naturally they left no extra refrigerant line, so they won't
    want
    to do it.

    --







    http://freevision.org/michael/index.html
    Michael Cerkowski, Sep 15, 2005
    #13
  14. Michael Cerkowski

    bob loblaw Guest

    Michael Cerkowski wrote:

    >there will be a humidifier drain
    > line
    > running about 15' over a doorsill to the sump pump,


    Get them, (or someone else), to install a condensate pump, which mounts
    beside your furnace.

    Respectfully, Bob
    bob loblaw, Sep 15, 2005
    #14
  15. bob loblaw wrote:
    >
    > Michael Cerkowski wrote:
    >
    > >there will be a humidifier drain
    > > line
    > > running about 15' over a doorsill to the sump pump,

    >
    > Get them, (or someone else), to install a condensate pump, which mounts
    > beside your furnace.
    >
    > Respectfully, Bob



    Great idea, but they refused to move the A/C unit or make any
    other changes. I'm going to take photos of what I consider the
    problem areas, and send them to Thermopride, FWIW.

    They claim to have done the peformance tests, and both units
    came out "factory spec". I actually believe that about the A/C,
    because it wasn't 90 degrees here, and they only ran it a short
    time.

    One last question: the furnace has that "new furnace smell".
    IOW, it's outgassing plastics and oil coatings when it runs.
    How long is this likely to continue?
    --







    http://freevision.org/michael/index.html
    Michael Cerkowski, Sep 15, 2005
    #15
  16. On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:06:31 GMT, Michael Cerkowski <>
    wrote:

    >bob loblaw wrote:
    >>
    >> Michael Cerkowski wrote:
    >>
    >> >there will be a humidifier drain
    >> > line
    >> > running about 15' over a doorsill to the sump pump,

    >>
    >> Get them, (or someone else), to install a condensate pump, which mounts
    >> beside your furnace.
    >>
    >> Respectfully, Bob

    >
    >
    > Great idea, but they refused to move the A/C unit or make any
    >other changes. I'm going to take photos of what I consider the
    >problem areas, and send them to Thermopride, FWIW.
    >
    > They claim to have done the peformance tests, and both units
    >came out "factory spec". I actually believe that about the A/C,
    >because it wasn't 90 degrees here, and they only ran it a short
    >time.
    >
    > One last question: the furnace has that "new furnace smell".
    >IOW, it's outgassing plastics and oil coatings when it runs.
    >How long is this likely to continue?


    Until you get it fixed.


    Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

    http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

    Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
    'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
    'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
    HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
    Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
    pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com, Sep 15, 2005
    #16
  17. Run it on heat. Should only last a day, two at the most.

    --

    Christopher A. Young
    Do good work.
    It's longer in the short run
    but shorter in the long run.
    ..
    ..


    "Michael Cerkowski" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    One last question: the furnace has that "new furnace smell".
    IOW, it's outgassing plastics and oil coatings when it runs.
    How long is this likely to continue?
    --
    Stormin Mormon, Sep 15, 2005
    #17
  18. Michael Cerkowski

    Bubba Guest

    On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:06:31 GMT, Michael Cerkowski <>
    wrote:

    >bob loblaw wrote:
    >>
    >> Michael Cerkowski wrote:
    >>
    >> >there will be a humidifier drain
    >> > line
    >> > running about 15' over a doorsill to the sump pump,

    >>
    >> Get them, (or someone else), to install a condensate pump, which mounts
    >> beside your furnace.
    >>
    >> Respectfully, Bob

    >
    >
    > Great idea, but they refused to move the A/C unit or make any
    >other changes. I'm going to take photos of what I consider the
    >problem areas, and send them to Thermopride, FWIW.
    >
    > They claim to have done the peformance tests, and both units
    >came out "factory spec". I actually believe that about the A/C,
    >because it wasn't 90 degrees here, and they only ran it a short
    >time.
    >
    > One last question: the furnace has that "new furnace smell".
    >IOW, it's outgassing plastics and oil coatings when it runs.
    >How long is this likely to continue?


    See? Now arent you glad you went with the cheapest bid?
    and now you want to come in here and whine and complain.
    You get what you pay for and YOU got EXACTLY what you paid for.
    "Aint learnin' the hard way a bitch?"
    Bubba
    Bubba, Sep 15, 2005
    #18
  19. Michael Cerkowski

    HvacKing Guest

    "Steve Scott" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > If you check into this, I'm sure you'll find TP is looking for
    > -0.02"wc draft over fire. NOT in the flue and not -0.04"wc. And the
    > damper won't provide for a constant negative pressure of even -0.02"wc
    > unless the draft in the chimney is sufficient to overcome whatever
    > leakage there may be.
    >

    I didnt say -.04"wc over fire. I said -.04"wc in the flue pipe.
    Also -.02"wc overfire is standard and nothing unique to Thermo Pride. The
    barometric camper functions exactly as I said. It looks like y'all like to
    try and discredit anyone who answers homeowners. Read it again and yes, of
    course I accept your apoligy for misinterputing what I wrote.

    King

    > On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:53:25 -0400, "HvacKing" <> wrote:
    >
    > >To your first question yes the rise sounds ok and the barometric damper,

    not
    > >DAMPNER, will compensate for fluctuating building pressures and provide

    for
    > >a constant negitive pressure of -.04" wc in the flue to facilitate

    draft.
    > >One thing I would make sure they do is a complete combustion analisis to
    > >ensure a clean burn and proper draft, (both overfire and flue draft) and
    > >ensure the furnace is performing to manufactures specs. If they are real
    > >pros they will provide a print out from the combustion analizer showing

    the
    > >results and the bottom line, the efficiency.

    >
    >
    > --
    > The cream rises to the top. So does
    > the scum...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    HvacKing, Sep 15, 2005
    #19
  20. "Michael Cerkowski" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > bob loblaw wrote:
    >>
    >> Michael Cerkowski wrote:
    >>
    >> >there will be a humidifier drain
    >> > line
    >> > running about 15' over a doorsill to the sump pump,

    >>
    >> Get them, (or someone else), to install a condensate pump, which mounts
    >> beside your furnace.
    >>
    >> Respectfully, Bob

    >
    >
    > Great idea, but they refused to move the A/C unit or make any
    > other changes. I'm going to take photos of what I consider the
    > problem areas, and send them to Thermopride, FWIW.
    >
    > They claim to have done the peformance tests, and both units
    > came out "factory spec". I actually believe that about the A/C,
    > because it wasn't 90 degrees here, and they only ran it a short
    > time.
    >

    I've recently been involved in a lawsuit (from a large private school)
    against an installer who failed to provide manufacturers clearances.
    The installation effectively voided manufacturers warrant and for most of
    the units made major servicing or repairs such as compressor replacement
    impossible without disassembly of refrigerant lines (and all that this
    entails) and turning the unit. The other issue was that the casing for the
    refrigerant lines intruded into the intake clearance zone of the units
    causing obstructions from 30% to 85% of air volume.
    We carried out enthalpy comparatives between the installed units and the
    Original Equipment Manufacturers technical data and the additional energy
    consumption was calculated over the expected lifecycle of properly installed
    equipment (20 years) by the normal expected operating hours per annum (with
    diversity reduction) plus the degradation from the expected lifecycle caused
    by the additional stressing of the equipment having to perform in adverse
    conditions due to the installation and this all resulted in an amount
    significant enough to justify further action.
    In addition to this, the extra work involved in carrying out major repairs
    such as compressor changouts was factored in.
    It appears that the installer wasn't insured for this type of liability...
    but a mechanical consulting engineer visited the site but failed to take
    action (the consulting engineer is being viewed as the supervisor because of
    their expertise). So now my next Professional Indemnity premium will
    probably go up!

    So where's all this heading for you? Well.. if you're not satisfied with the
    installation and have advised the installer of your concerns without action.
    Get the enthalpy profile from the manufacturer (yes you can tell them what
    your doing)
    Go and find a refrigeration technician with (a calibrated/certified) set of
    gauges and temperature measuring instruments.
    Get the indoors up to a temperature up to where there will be significant
    heat load in the room, Get the outdoor conditions to approach manufacturers
    test conditions (or at last in the hot season or use hot air blowers to
    simulate load conditions)
    The technician needs to record the suction and discharge refrigerant
    pressures and temperatures at the outdoor unit, the condenser air on/air off
    temperature and the evaporator air on/air off temperature. It's also a good
    idea to check the supply voltage and current at the same time.
    Armed with this data, a competent building services engineer, or the OEM
    should be able to provide an enthalpy comparative.
    Be aware that some OEM's have significant ties to certain installers and
    would view it as not in their best interests to provide damaging information
    about their customers (others have morals, ethics and decency).
    New Directions In Building Services \(Australia\), Sep 15, 2005
    #20

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