Concrete block construction with construction adhesive

Discussion in 'Building Construction' started by Robert, Oct 20, 2003.

  1. Robert

    Robert Guest

    I was tearing down a concrete block wall the other day and I found that most
    of it could be kicked down with my foot. Evidently the job was not done
    correctly.
    That got me to thinking, Can construction adhesive be used to put up a
    concrete block wall?

    It seems to me that it would at least be as strong as a good job and a heck
    of a lot easier for a novice. If so, it would be a blessing to me. I have
    some property out in the desert many miles from the road. We started a house
    there about 6 years ago and the expense and logistics of getting the
    materials and water out there just to pour the slab and foundation was
    unbelievable since the only water there had to be taken from the atmosphere.
    We finaly stopped work for another alternative to hauling masive quantities
    of water.

    There are no building codes there but I still want it strong.

    By the way, We epoxy coated the exposed rebar before we left so it wouldn't
    rust.
     
    Robert, Oct 20, 2003
    #1
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  2. Robert

    Steven Guest

    Sure, construction adhesive can be used to put up a brick wall. The true
    questions would be will the wall stay up and be structurally sound? No.


    "Robert" <> wrote in message
    news:M7Mkb.140611$...
    > I was tearing down a concrete block wall the other day and I found that

    most
    > of it could be kicked down with my foot. Evidently the job was not done
    > correctly.
    > That got me to thinking, Can construction adhesive be used to put up a
    > concrete block wall?
    >
     
    Steven, Oct 20, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Robert

    FAMILY Guest

    Robert,

    If you find an adhesive to bond the blocks together and then pour it solid
    you shouldn't have a problem. (If you find a product for this application
    let us know)

    From my understanding the block wall is just a vessel holding the concrete
    in and the mortar just holds the block together until poured. The concrete
    and rebar is where the strength is.

    I would make sure the rebars are 2' - 4' apart horizontally and vertically.
    I am not sure how high the walls are going to be but I would try to pour
    every 2' - 4' vertically.

    Good luck,

    Dan


    "Robert" <> wrote in message
    news:M7Mkb.140611$...
    > I was tearing down a concrete block wall the other day and I found that

    most
    > of it could be kicked down with my foot. Evidently the job was not done
    > correctly.
    > That got me to thinking, Can construction adhesive be used to put up a
    > concrete block wall?
    >
    > It seems to me that it would at least be as strong as a good job and a

    heck
    > of a lot easier for a novice. If so, it would be a blessing to me. I have
    > some property out in the desert many miles from the road. We started a

    house
    > there about 6 years ago and the expense and logistics of getting the
    > materials and water out there just to pour the slab and foundation was
    > unbelievable since the only water there had to be taken from the

    atmosphere.
    > We finaly stopped work for another alternative to hauling masive

    quantities
    > of water.
    >
    > There are no building codes there but I still want it strong.
    >
    > By the way, We epoxy coated the exposed rebar before we left so it

    wouldn't
    > rust.
    >
    >
     
    FAMILY, Oct 20, 2003
    #3
  4. I think I will; just work on getting a large volume of water and go like I
    origionaly itended. I wasn't thinking when I thought about this because I
    still had to pour the rebar anyhow. Thanks everybody.

    "FAMILY" <12343#@ATT.NET> wrote in message
    news:K_Xkb.186816$...
    > Robert,
    >
    > If you find an adhesive to bond the blocks together and then pour it solid
    > you shouldn't have a problem. (If you find a product for this application
    > let us know)
    >
    > From my understanding the block wall is just a vessel holding the concrete
    > in and the mortar just holds the block together until poured. The concrete
    > and rebar is where the strength is.
    >
    > I would make sure the rebars are 2' - 4' apart horizontally and

    vertically.
    > I am not sure how high the walls are going to be but I would try to pour
    > every 2' - 4' vertically.
    >
    > Good luck,
    >
    > Dan
    >
    >
    > "Robert" <> wrote in message
    > news:M7Mkb.140611$...
    > > I was tearing down a concrete block wall the other day and I found that

    > most
    > > of it could be kicked down with my foot. Evidently the job was not done
    > > correctly.
    > > That got me to thinking, Can construction adhesive be used to put up a
    > > concrete block wall?
    > >
    > > It seems to me that it would at least be as strong as a good job and a

    > heck
    > > of a lot easier for a novice. If so, it would be a blessing to me. I

    have
    > > some property out in the desert many miles from the road. We started a

    > house
    > > there about 6 years ago and the expense and logistics of getting the
    > > materials and water out there just to pour the slab and foundation was
    > > unbelievable since the only water there had to be taken from the

    > atmosphere.
    > > We finaly stopped work for another alternative to hauling masive

    > quantities
    > > of water.
    > >
    > > There are no building codes there but I still want it strong.
    > >
    > > By the way, We epoxy coated the exposed rebar before we left so it

    > wouldn't
    > > rust.
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    The Proud Infadel, Oct 20, 2003
    #4
  5. Robert

    Dale Farmer Guest

    Robert wrote:

    > I was tearing down a concrete block wall the other day and I found that most
    > of it could be kicked down with my foot. Evidently the job was not done
    > correctly.
    > That got me to thinking, Can construction adhesive be used to put up a
    > concrete block wall?
    >
    > It seems to me that it would at least be as strong as a good job and a heck
    > of a lot easier for a novice. If so, it would be a blessing to me. I have
    > some property out in the desert many miles from the road. We started a house
    > there about 6 years ago and the expense and logistics of getting the
    > materials and water out there just to pour the slab and foundation was
    > unbelievable since the only water there had to be taken from the atmosphere.
    > We finaly stopped work for another alternative to hauling masive quantities
    > of water.
    >
    > There are no building codes there but I still want it strong.
    >
    > By the way, We epoxy coated the exposed rebar before we left so it wouldn't
    > rust.


    If you are looking for an inexpensive way to haul water in rural areas,
    check
    with the local volunteer fire departments. For the cost of fuel, driver, and a
    decent donation to the new apparatus fund they will often allow use of their
    water tankers and temporary holding tanks.

    --Dale
     
    Dale Farmer, Oct 20, 2003
    #5
  6. FAMILY wrote:
    > Robert,
    >
    > If you find an adhesive to bond the blocks together and then pour it solid
    > you shouldn't have a problem. (If you find a product for this application
    > let us know)
    >
    > From my understanding the block wall is just a vessel holding the concrete
    > in and the mortar just holds the block together until poured. The concrete
    > and rebar is where the strength is.


    No completely correct. Bare block can make a wall that is strong enough
    for many applications. There are are many 40+ year old foundations
    around my locale (northeast) made from lowly 8" concrete blocks that
    have no filled cores, durawall or anything else. My last house was
    built this way and the only problem with it was when a tree root grew
    into a wall and started to crack it.

    Concrete block is very strong in compression, but relatively weak in
    tension so it doesn't resist bending loads very well. However, once you
    put a heavy building on top, it will resist a far bit of vertical
    bending load. Adding rebar and filling some or all of the cores
    certainly does add much additional strength, but if you don't need it,
    then it is wasted.


    > I would make sure the rebars are 2' - 4' apart horizontally and vertically.
    > I am not sure how high the walls are going to be but I would try to pour
    > every 2' - 4' vertically.



    I've never seen rebar placed horizontally in a block wall. I suppose it
    could be done, but you'd have to either notch the blocks or use very
    small rebar or a very large mortar joint. I've always used a product
    called DuraWall (or something close to that spelling) for horizontal
    reinforcement and then rebar every 4' or so for vertical.

    My last foundation was precast concrete and so far I like it the best of
    all! :)


    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Oct 20, 2003
    #6
  7. Dale Farmer wrote:
    >
    > Robert wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I was tearing down a concrete block wall the other day and I found that most
    >>of it could be kicked down with my foot. Evidently the job was not done
    >>correctly.
    >>That got me to thinking, Can construction adhesive be used to put up a
    >>concrete block wall?
    >>
    >>It seems to me that it would at least be as strong as a good job and a heck
    >>of a lot easier for a novice. If so, it would be a blessing to me. I have
    >>some property out in the desert many miles from the road. We started a house
    >>there about 6 years ago and the expense and logistics of getting the
    >>materials and water out there just to pour the slab and foundation was
    >>unbelievable since the only water there had to be taken from the atmosphere.
    >>We finaly stopped work for another alternative to hauling masive quantities
    >>of water.
    >>
    >>There are no building codes there but I still want it strong.
    >>
    >>By the way, We epoxy coated the exposed rebar before we left so it wouldn't
    >>rust.

    >
    >
    > If you are looking for an inexpensive way to haul water in rural areas,
    > check
    > with the local volunteer fire departments. For the cost of fuel, driver, and a
    > decent donation to the new apparatus fund they will often allow use of their
    > water tankers and temporary holding tanks.
    >
    > --Dale
    >
    >


    Yes, and it is good to get to know, and support, the local volunteer
    fire department if you live in a rural area. You may need them some day
    and it is good if they know you and exactly how to reach your place
    should the worst happen.


    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Oct 20, 2003
    #7
  8. Robert

    Bob Morrison Guest

    In article <K_Xkb.186816$0v4.14438224@bgtnsc04-
    news.ops.worldnet.att.net> FAMILY says...
    > From my understanding the block wall is just a vessel holding the concrete
    > in and the mortar just holds the block together until poured. The concrete
    > and rebar is where the strength is.
    >


    Not true.

    Block (CMU) walls are designed in a similar fashion to poured in place
    concrete. Rebar placement is critical as is placement of grout.

    Mortar (the stuff in the joints) strength is dictated by the local
    building code. Mortar is used because it's less expensive than just
    about any other product for the amount needed to properly join the
    blocks.

    If you decide to use an adhesive, let me know ahead of time so I can
    take out stock in the company. <grin>

    --
    Bob Morrison
    R.L. Morrison Engineering Co.
    Structural and Civil Engineering
    Poulsbo WA
     
    Bob Morrison, Oct 20, 2003
    #8
  9. In article <>, Matthew S. Whiting
    <> wrote:

    € I've never seen rebar placed horizontally in a block wall. I suppose it
    € could be done, but you'd have to either notch the blocks or use very
    € small rebar or a very large mortar joint.

    There is a type of block sold that has two slots cut in each end, and
    one knocks the chunk of block between the slots out with a hammer,
    which creates a horizontal space for the run of rebar.

    Since not every course will call for a run of hor bar, it's easy to mix
    up the count of the types of block when you're ordering.

    --
    Lyle B. Harwood, President
    Phoenix Homes, Inc.
    (206) 523-9500 www.phoenixhomesinc.com
     
    Lyle B. Harwood, Oct 21, 2003
    #9
  10. Robert

    FAMILY Guest

    The block you are making reference to are called "bond-beam block" and
    usually the knockouts are all ready knocked out. most companies do not make
    bond-beam block with the knock out still in. If you want a really strong
    block wall look for 50/50's usually 50% pumas and 50% concrete mix. most
    blocks are 25/75, 25% concrete and 75% pumas (light in weight). on the
    corners or at the ends of wall you will use a stretcher block (regular
    block) and make cuts appropriately.

    I hope this helps,

    Dan

    "Lyle B. Harwood" <> wrote in message
    news:bn1u4t$jrf$1@216.39.146.232...
    > In article <>, Matthew S. Whiting
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > € I've never seen rebar placed horizontally in a block wall. I suppose it
    > € could be done, but you'd have to either notch the blocks or use very
    > € small rebar or a very large mortar joint.
    >
    > There is a type of block sold that has two slots cut in each end, and
    > one knocks the chunk of block between the slots out with a hammer,
    > which creates a horizontal space for the run of rebar.
    >
    > Since not every course will call for a run of hor bar, it's easy to mix
    > up the count of the types of block when you're ordering.
    >
    > --
    > Lyle B. Harwood, President
    > Phoenix Homes, Inc.
    > (206) 523-9500 www.phoenixhomesinc.com
     
    FAMILY, Oct 21, 2003
    #10
  11. "Robert" <> wrote in message
    news:M7Mkb.140611$...
    > I was tearing down a concrete block wall the other day and

    I found that most
    > of it could be kicked down with my foot. Evidently the job

    was not done
    > correctly.
    > That got me to thinking, Can construction adhesive be used

    to put up a
    > concrete block wall?
    >
    > It seems to me that it would at least be as strong as a

    good job and a heck
    > of a lot easier for a novice.


    Not necessarily so, Robert . . .

    .. . . as to the "lot easier" part, novice or pro.

    Maintaining plumb as well as aligned stretchers can be a
    real pain with a product with manufacturing tollerences
    suffered by cmu, unless you have a mortar joint to make up
    differences. The level lines may not be so severe a
    problem, but you better believe you'll have fits trying to
    keep walls and openings plumb. Don't forget, when it starts
    to tilt, you can't level with the mud. And, when your block
    doesn't run just right to an opening, you may have to saw
    1/4" off the ends or something like that, as you can't make
    it up with a head joint.

    Just a word of warning. Things that look very easy are more
    often a first class pain in . . .

    Jim
    >
     
    JsWalkerLazenbyJr, Oct 21, 2003
    #11
  12. Robert

    Ed Kliman Guest

    Robert:

    You can dry-stack the concrete block and then shotcrete the block
    walls with a mix of Portland and sand in a 3:1 mix and get a building
    that will last beyond your lifetime. Mix some nylon reinforcement
    fibers in from Nycon (nycon.com) with your shotcrete mix and your
    walls will still be standing in the year 2500. The shotcrete sprayer
    can be had for around $200 (mortarsprayer.com) and the application
    layer only needs to be 1/8" so your water usage and your capital
    expenditures will be minimal. You can eliminate the need for
    horizontal rebar by parging your walls in this fashion. Good
    construction practices call for spacing your vertical rebar/grout
    columns every 4 feet.

    I am building a house in this fashion adapted from and for conditions
    in the Southwest. If you'd like to do a drive-by, remove the "NOSPAM"
    from the URL below. You're always welcome to e-mail with questions
    about technique, vendors or materials.

    http://www.NOSPAMtexasmusicforge.com/gimmeshelter.html

    Best regards,

    Tio Ed
    El Rey de Sweat Equity
    Austin, Texas
     
    Ed Kliman, Oct 21, 2003
    #12
  13. FAMILY wrote:
    > The block you are making reference to are called "bond-beam block" and
    > usually the knockouts are all ready knocked out. most companies do not make
    > bond-beam block with the knock out still in. If you want a really strong
    > block wall look for 50/50's usually 50% pumas and 50% concrete mix. most
    > blocks are 25/75, 25% concrete and 75% pumas (light in weight). on the
    > corners or at the ends of wall you will use a stretcher block (regular
    > block) and make cuts appropriately.
    >
    > I hope this helps,
    >
    > Dan
    >
    > "Lyle B. Harwood" <> wrote in message
    > news:bn1u4t$jrf$1@216.39.146.232...
    >
    >>In article <>, Matthew S. Whiting
    >><> wrote:
    >>
    >>€ I've never seen rebar placed horizontally in a block wall. I suppose it
    >>€ could be done, but you'd have to either notch the blocks or use very
    >>€ small rebar or a very large mortar joint.
    >>
    >>There is a type of block sold that has two slots cut in each end, and
    >>one knocks the chunk of block between the slots out with a hammer,
    >>which creates a horizontal space for the run of rebar.
    >>
    >>Since not every course will call for a run of hor bar, it's easy to mix
    >>up the count of the types of block when you're ordering.
    >>
    >>--
    >>Lyle B. Harwood, President
    >>Phoenix Homes, Inc.
    >>(206) 523-9500 www.phoenixhomesinc.com

    >
    >
    >


    But don't you then have to knock holes in the bond beam blocks for the
    cores that you want to fill vertically? Seems rather complicated to me
    when their are better ways that are perfectly acceptable structurally.

    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Oct 21, 2003
    #13
  14. Robert

    FAMILY Guest

    Matt,

    No, the bond-beams are made just like the regular block (stretcher block).
    They both have vertical cells and the bond-beams have a horizontal slots or
    opening in them for rebar.
    Here are some examples of CMU block:
    http://www.mutualmaterials.com/commercial/cmu_shapes4.html

    http://www.mutualmaterials.com/commercial/cmu_shapes1.html

    I hope this helps,

    Dan


    "Matthew S. Whiting" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > FAMILY wrote:
    > > The block you are making reference to are called "bond-beam block" and
    > > usually the knockouts are all ready knocked out. most companies do not

    make
    > > bond-beam block with the knock out still in. If you want a really strong
    > > block wall look for 50/50's usually 50% pumas and 50% concrete mix. most
    > > blocks are 25/75, 25% concrete and 75% pumas (light in weight). on the
    > > corners or at the ends of wall you will use a stretcher block (regular
    > > block) and make cuts appropriately.
    > >
    > > I hope this helps,
    > >
    > > Dan
    > >
    > > "Lyle B. Harwood" <> wrote in message
    > > news:bn1u4t$jrf$1@216.39.146.232...
    > >
    > >>In article <>, Matthew S. Whiting
    > >><> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>€ I've never seen rebar placed horizontally in a block wall. I suppose

    it
    > >>€ could be done, but you'd have to either notch the blocks or use very
    > >>€ small rebar or a very large mortar joint.
    > >>
    > >>There is a type of block sold that has two slots cut in each end, and
    > >>one knocks the chunk of block between the slots out with a hammer,
    > >>which creates a horizontal space for the run of rebar.
    > >>
    > >>Since not every course will call for a run of hor bar, it's easy to mix
    > >>up the count of the types of block when you're ordering.
    > >>
    > >>--
    > >>Lyle B. Harwood, President
    > >>Phoenix Homes, Inc.
    > >>(206) 523-9500 www.phoenixhomesinc.com

    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    > But don't you then have to knock holes in the bond beam blocks for the
    > cores that you want to fill vertically? Seems rather complicated to me
    > when their are better ways that are perfectly acceptable structurally.
    >
    > Matt
    >
     
    FAMILY, Oct 21, 2003
    #14
  15. FAMILY wrote:
    > Matt,
    >
    > No, the bond-beams are made just like the regular block (stretcher block).
    > They both have vertical cells and the bond-beams have a horizontal slots or
    > opening in them for rebar.
    > Here are some examples of CMU block:
    > http://www.mutualmaterials.com/commercial/cmu_shapes4.html
    >
    > http://www.mutualmaterials.com/commercial/cmu_shapes1.html



    OK, so you have to fill all of the cores of all of the blocks then to
    make this work. I was thinking of just filling the vertical cores that
    contained the rebar and likewise the horizontal cores that contain the
    rebar, however, you'd have to have a block closed at the bottom for
    that. I was thinking more of a block that would be used to create a
    lintel. I can't imagine that building a block wall loaded with rebar
    and then loaded with concrete would be more efficient than just using
    forms and poured concrete.


    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Oct 21, 2003
    #15
  16. In article <>, Matthew S. Whiting
    <> wrote:

    € But don't you then have to knock holes in the bond beam blocks for the
    € cores that you want to fill vertically? Seems rather complicated to me
    € when their are better ways that are perfectly acceptable structurally.

    No, they have vertical cores.

    --
    Lyle B. Harwood, President
    Phoenix Homes, Inc.
    (206) 523-9500 www.phoenixhomesinc.com
     
    Lyle B. Harwood, Oct 22, 2003
    #16
  17. In article <>, Matthew S. Whiting
    <> wrote:

    € I can't imagine that building a block wall loaded with rebar
    € and then loaded with concrete would be more efficient than just using
    € forms and poured concrete.

    We agree on that.

    I've always recommended poured concrete, with a superior product at a
    lower cost being the primary reason. So far, the only significant block
    wall I got involved in was taking over and finishing up a homeowner's
    project.

    --
    Lyle B. Harwood, President
    Phoenix Homes, Inc.
    (206) 523-9500 www.phoenixhomesinc.com
     
    Lyle B. Harwood, Oct 22, 2003
    #17
  18. Robert

    Bob Morrison Guest

    In article <> Matthew S. Whiting says...
    > OK, so you have to fill all of the cores of all of the blocks then to
    > make this work. I was thinking of just filling the vertical cores that
    > contained the rebar and likewise the horizontal cores that contain the
    > rebar, however, you'd have to have a block closed at the bottom for
    > that.
    >

    Actually, I believe the masons normally have a piece of screen or
    something similar (could be an old shirt for that matter) that gets
    stuffed in the holes below the bond beam block that don't contain
    reinforcing. It is common construction to use rebar at 32" o/c vert and
    bond beams at 48" o/c. Only the cells and bond beams that have bars are
    grouted and it is done usually in 4-foot lifts.

    --
    Bob Morrison
    R.L. Morrison Engineering Co.
    Structural and Civil Engineering
    Poulsbo WA
     
    Bob Morrison, Oct 22, 2003
    #18
  19. Robert

    FAMILY Guest

    Matt,

    All you have to do is install a screen on the bottom of the bond-beam course
    or pour vermiculite (or something comparable, for insulation purposes) into
    the cells that you are planning on not pouring solid.

    Good luck,

    Dan



    "Matthew S. Whiting" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > FAMILY wrote:
    > > Matt,
    > >
    > > No, the bond-beams are made just like the regular block (stretcher

    block).
    > > They both have vertical cells and the bond-beams have a horizontal slots

    or
    > > opening in them for rebar.
    > > Here are some examples of CMU block:
    > > http://www.mutualmaterials.com/commercial/cmu_shapes4.html
    > >
    > > http://www.mutualmaterials.com/commercial/cmu_shapes1.html

    >
    >
    > OK, so you have to fill all of the cores of all of the blocks then to
    > make this work. I was thinking of just filling the vertical cores that
    > contained the rebar and likewise the horizontal cores that contain the
    > rebar, however, you'd have to have a block closed at the bottom for
    > that. I was thinking more of a block that would be used to create a
    > lintel. I can't imagine that building a block wall loaded with rebar
    > and then loaded with concrete would be more efficient than just using
    > forms and poured concrete.
    >
    >
    > Matt
    >
     
    FAMILY, Oct 22, 2003
    #19
  20. Bob Morrison wrote:
    > In article <> Matthew S. Whiting says...
    >
    >>OK, so you have to fill all of the cores of all of the blocks then to
    >>make this work. I was thinking of just filling the vertical cores that
    >>contained the rebar and likewise the horizontal cores that contain the
    >>rebar, however, you'd have to have a block closed at the bottom for
    >>that.
    >>

    >
    > Actually, I believe the masons normally have a piece of screen or
    > something similar (could be an old shirt for that matter) that gets
    > stuffed in the holes below the bond beam block that don't contain
    > reinforcing. It is common construction to use rebar at 32" o/c vert and
    > bond beams at 48" o/c. Only the cells and bond beams that have bars are
    > grouted and it is done usually in 4-foot lifts.
    >


    That was my thinking also, but the blocks didn't seem to be designed for
    that. Seems like they could use a closed bottom block to make life
    easier for the horizontal beam fabrication. I think I'd just go with
    poured concrete if I needed that much reinforcement. Around here,
    unreinforced block walls cost within about 10% of poured concrete which
    are only about 10% less than precast concrete. I think you'd chew up
    the 10% savings really quickly with the labor and materials cost of
    adding the vertical and horizontal bond beams. Maybe other areas the
    cost advantage is better, but here I don't think it would be economical.
    And other than needing a very intricate shape, I can't think of any
    other (non-economical) reason to use block.


    Matt
     
    Matthew S. Whiting, Oct 22, 2003
    #20
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    SQLit
    Jan 27, 2006
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