Best way to insulate single brick wall.

Discussion in 'Misc DIY' started by David WE Roberts, Jun 17, 2005.

  1. Hi,

    looking at the best way to convert a garage into living accommodation.

    One way suggested is to add a stud wall with solid insulation between
    studs, then cover with plasterboard.

    This will be quite thick.

    Is there a thinner way to do this, e.g. rendered thermal blocks?

    TIA

    Dave R
    David WE Roberts, Jun 17, 2005
    #1
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  2. David WE Roberts

    Doctor Evil Guest

    "David WE Roberts" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > Hi,
    >
    > looking at the best way to convert a garage into living accommodation.
    >
    > One way suggested is to add a stud wall with solid insulation between
    > studs, then cover with plasterboard.
    >
    > This will be quite thick.
    >
    > Is there a thinner way to do this, e.g. rendered thermal blocks?


    It will not have much insulation though. You have to apply about 3 coast of
    sythaproof to the floor to about a foot up the wall, to prevent damp from
    getting in.
    Doctor Evil, Jun 17, 2005
    #2
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  3. David WE Roberts

    Dave Baker Guest

    Lobster <> wrote in message
    news:WiEse.12281$...
    > David WE Roberts wrote:
    > > looking at the best way to convert a garage into living accommodation.
    > >
    > > One way suggested is to add a stud wall with solid insulation between
    > > studs, then cover with plasterboard.
    > >
    > > This will be quite thick.
    > >
    > > Is there a thinner way to do this, e.g. rendered thermal blocks?

    >
    > I'm about to do the same thing myself as it happens. In consultation
    > with the BCO, what I'm going to do is erect a framework of 3X2 timber,
    > 1" away from the brick wall. The gaps between the timbers will be
    > filled with 2" Kingspan insulation, maintaining the airgap between that
    > and the bricks. Finally, standard plasterboard on the internal wall
    > (can't recall what thickness I've been told to use). Sounds pretty much
    > what you're suggesting? It adds about 4.5" to the thickness of the wall.
    >
    > That won't give the U values required for a new build, but for
    > converting an older property the BCO is happy with it.


    Does 2" Kingspan with a 1" gap provide more insulation than 3" Kingspan
    abutting the wall?
    --
    Dave Baker - Puma Race Engines (www.pumaracing.co.uk)
    Dave Baker, Jun 17, 2005
    #3
  4. David WE Roberts

    Mike Guest

    "Lobster" <> wrote in message
    news:WiEse.12281$...
    > David WE Roberts wrote:
    > > looking at the best way to convert a garage into living accommodation.
    > > One way suggested is to add a stud wall with solid insulation between
    > > studs, then cover with plasterboard.


    That's the usual way.

    > I'm about to do the same thing myself as it happens. In consultation
    > with the BCO, what I'm going to do is erect a framework of 3X2 timber,
    > 1" away from the brick wall. The gaps between the timbers will be
    > filled with 2" Kingspan insulation, maintaining the airgap between that
    > and the bricks. Finally, standard plasterboard on the internal wall
    > (can't recall what thickness I've been told to use). Sounds pretty much
    > what you're suggesting? It adds about 4.5" to the thickness of the wall.
    >
    > That won't give the U values required for a new build, but for
    > converting an older property the BCO is happy with it.


    For converting a garage to accommodation you are supposed to meet the regs
    so he'll need 60mm of Kingspan. But the airgap can be pretty small is the
    wall is truly vertical - all you are trying to do is vent any vapour
    buildup. Almost 10mm can be gained by plasterskimming the Kingspan rather
    than using plasterboard - there is a special version available for this
    though nobody stocks it so you have to order it in though.
    Mike, Jun 17, 2005
    #4
  5. David WE Roberts

    Mike Guest

    "Tony Bryer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <42b31431$0$18650$>, Dave Baker
    > wrote:
    > > Does 2" Kingspan with a 1" gap provide more insulation than 3"
    > > Kingspan abutting the wall?

    >
    > No but by keeping the timber 25mm clear of the brick and having a
    > 50mm airspace you should avoid any damp problems.
    >
    > Sounds like a sensible BCO who has remembered that Reg L1 itself does
    > not saying anything about U-values, just that you must take
    > reasonable steps to ensure the conservation of fuel and power.


    I presume you mean Statutory Instrument part L1.

    The approved documents part L1 offer ways of meeting this requirement and do
    mention U values unless you use the carbon index method.

    In any case the proposed new part L is expected to close most of the getout
    clauses and the improvement methods, be it n% of house improvements or
    bringing property up to spec on sale, combined with selected demolition of
    worse case properties, will eventually bring our housing stock up to a
    sensible level of energy efficiency.
    Mike, Jun 17, 2005
    #5
  6. David WE Roberts

    Mike Guest

    "Lobster" <> wrote in message
    news:soFse.27841$...
    > >
    > > For converting a garage to accommodation you are supposed to meet the

    regs
    >
    > My own scenario is conversion of an partly-attached outhouse to
    > accomodation, and to my relief the BCO has taken a common-sense approach
    > and didn't insist on full compliance.


    I think you've been quite lucky. That sounds as near to a barn conversion
    as one can get without being one and there is a ruling from the ODPM that
    these must meet the regs, even if they are listed. This has had a severe
    effect on the market for such conversions and there are several round here
    'in limbo' as they've had planning permission granted but can't meet the
    building regs without altering the appearance of the building whereupon the
    conservation officer says no.

    That said, I've just brought an old farmhouse up to exceed the requirements
    for a modern build and generally found that once you do have to add
    insulation anywhere (which for an old building is everywhere !) the cost of
    meeting the regs isn't generally that much extra provided you plan it well
    from the start.
    Mike, Jun 17, 2005
    #6
  7. David WE Roberts

    Mike Guest

    "Lobster" <> wrote in message
    news:ITFse.25511$...

    > >>>For converting a garage to accommodation you are supposed to meet the

    > > regs
    > >
    > >>My own scenario is conversion of an partly-attached outhouse to
    > >>accomodation, and to my relief the BCO has taken a common-sense approach
    > >>and didn't insist on full compliance.

    > >
    > > I think you've been quite lucky. That sounds as near to a barn

    conversion
    > > as one can get without being one

    >
    > Well you might grin if you saw my 'barn conversion' - the outhouse
    > concerned is little more than outside-loo size and will add about 5 sqm
    > to the house!


    But as has been said some BCOs are sensible, some aren't.

    Also remember that many conservatories are about that size and these have
    been causing concern at the ODPM - they are generally exempt yet people have
    started using them all year round and pour heat through the glass roof.
    Expect to see rules covering this at some time in the future.
    Mike, Jun 17, 2005
    #7
  8. David WE Roberts

    Hugo Nebula Guest

    On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:36:51 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named
    David WE Roberts <> randomly hit the keyboard and
    produced:

    >looking at the best way to convert a garage into living accommodation.
    >
    >One way suggested is to add a stud wall with solid insulation between
    >studs, then cover with plasterboard.
    >
    >This will be quite thick.
    >
    >Is there a thinner way to do this, e.g. rendered thermal blocks?


    The stud & Celotex will add about 50-70mm to the wall. With blocks,
    you'll need a 65-70mm cavity containing at least 30mm Celotex, then
    100mm thick blocks, plus your internal finish (plaster).
    --
    Hugo Nebula
    "If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
    just how far from the pack have you strayed?"
    Hugo Nebula, Jun 18, 2005
    #8
  9. David WE Roberts

    Hugo Nebula Guest

    On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:49:05 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named
    "Mike" <> randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

    >"Lobster" <> wrote in message
    >news:soFse.27841$...


    >> My own scenario is conversion of an partly-attached outhouse to
    >> accomodation, and to my relief the BCO has taken a common-sense approach
    >> and didn't insist on full compliance.

    >
    >I think you've been quite lucky. That sounds as near to a barn conversion
    >as one can get without being one.


    A barn conversion _is_ different, as it is a change of use as defined
    within the Building Regulations. A conversion of a building attached
    to (and ancillary to) a dwelling isn't.
    --
    Hugo Nebula
    "If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
    just how far from the pack have you strayed?"
    Hugo Nebula, Jun 18, 2005
    #9
  10. David WE Roberts

    Hugo Nebula Guest

    On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:54:16 GMT, a particular chimpanzee named
    Lobster <> randomly hit the keyboard and
    produced:

    >Well you might grin if you saw my 'barn conversion' - the outhouse
    >concerned is little more than outside-loo size and will add about 5 sqm
    >to the house!


    If it's less than 6m², then it only has to be insulated to the
    standard of the existing dwelling.
    --
    Hugo Nebula
    "If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
    just how far from the pack have you strayed?"
    Hugo Nebula, Jun 18, 2005
    #10
  11. David WE Roberts

    Rob Morley Guest

    In article <>, "Hugo
    Nebula" abuse@localhost says...
    > On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:54:16 GMT, a particular chimpanzee named
    > Lobster <> randomly hit the keyboard and
    > produced:
    >
    > >Well you might grin if you saw my 'barn conversion' - the outhouse
    > >concerned is little more than outside-loo size and will add about 5 sqm
    > >to the house!

    >
    > If it's less than 6m², then it only has to be insulated to the
    > standard of the existing dwelling.
    >

    Is that internal or external area?
    Rob Morley, Jun 18, 2005
    #11
  12. David WE Roberts

    Doctor Evil Guest

    "Ian Stirling" <> wrote in message
    news:42b3231a$0$41903$...
    > Doctor Evil <> wrote:
    > >
    > > "David WE Roberts" <> wrote in message
    > > news:p...
    > >> Hi,
    > >>
    > >> looking at the best way to convert a garage into living accommodation.
    > >>
    > >> One way suggested is to add a stud wall with solid insulation between
    > >> studs, then cover with plasterboard.
    > >>
    > >> This will be quite thick.
    > >>
    > >> Is there a thinner way to do this, e.g. rendered thermal blocks?

    > >
    > > It will not have much insulation though. You have to apply about 3 coast

    of
    > > sythaproof to the floor to about a foot up the wall, to prevent damp

    from
    > > getting in.

    >
    > Not to mention 400m of insulation to the walls.


    I forgot that. Well spotted.
    Doctor Evil, Jun 18, 2005
    #12
  13. David WE Roberts

    Doctor Evil Guest

    "Dave Baker" <Pumaracing(NoEmails)@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:42b31431$0$18650$...
    >
    > Lobster <> wrote in message
    > news:WiEse.12281$...
    > > David WE Roberts wrote:
    > > > looking at the best way to convert a garage into living accommodation.
    > > >
    > > > One way suggested is to add a stud wall with solid insulation between
    > > > studs, then cover with plasterboard.
    > > >
    > > > This will be quite thick.
    > > >
    > > > Is there a thinner way to do this, e.g. rendered thermal blocks?

    > >
    > > I'm about to do the same thing myself as it happens. In consultation
    > > with the BCO, what I'm going to do is erect a framework of 3X2 timber,
    > > 1" away from the brick wall. The gaps between the timbers will be
    > > filled with 2" Kingspan insulation, maintaining the airgap between that
    > > and the bricks. Finally, standard plasterboard on the internal wall
    > > (can't recall what thickness I've been told to use). Sounds pretty much
    > > what you're suggesting? It adds about 4.5" to the thickness of the

    wall.
    > >
    > > That won't give the U values required for a new build, but for
    > > converting an older property the BCO is happy with it.

    >
    > Does 2" Kingspan with a 1" gap provide more insulation than 3" Kingspan
    > abutting the wall?


    Nope.
    Doctor Evil, Jun 18, 2005
    #13
  14. David WE Roberts

    Hugo Nebula Guest

    On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:13:01 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named Rob
    Morley <> randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

    >In article <>, "Hugo
    >Nebula" abuse@localhost says...


    >> If it's less than 6m², then it only has to be insulated to the
    >> standard of the existing dwelling.
    >>

    >Is that internal or external area?


    Internal.
    --
    Hugo Nebula
    "If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
    just how far from the pack have you strayed?"
    Hugo Nebula, Jun 18, 2005
    #14
  15. David WE Roberts

    Roger Guest

    The message <d8v9fu$76m$>
    from "Mike" <> contains these words:

    > That said, I've just brought an old farmhouse up to exceed the requirements
    > for a modern build and generally found that once you do have to add
    > insulation anywhere (which for an old building is everywhere !) the cost of
    > meeting the regs isn't generally that much extra provided you plan it well
    > from the start.


    How did you insulate your external walls?

    --
    Roger
    Roger, Jun 18, 2005
    #15
  16. David WE Roberts

    Roger Guest

    The message <>
    from Hugo Nebula <abuse@localhost> contains these words:

    > A barn conversion _is_ different, as it is a change of use as defined
    > within the Building Regulations. A conversion of a building attached
    > to (and ancillary to) a dwelling isn't.


    So when is a barn not a barn? I have a barn attached to my house which I
    use as a garage and d-i-y workshop. Judging by my Council Tax it isn't
    an agricultural building.

    --
    Roger
    Roger, Jun 18, 2005
    #16
  17. David WE Roberts

    Mike Guest

    "Hugo Nebula" <abuse@localhost> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:49:05 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named
    > "Mike" <> randomly hit the keyboard and produced:
    >
    > >"Lobster" <> wrote in message
    > >news:soFse.27841$...

    >
    > >> My own scenario is conversion of an partly-attached outhouse to
    > >> accomodation, and to my relief the BCO has taken a common-sense

    approach
    > >> and didn't insist on full compliance.

    > >
    > >I think you've been quite lucky. That sounds as near to a barn

    conversion
    > >as one can get without being one.

    >
    > A barn conversion _is_ different, as it is a change of use as defined
    > within the Building Regulations. A conversion of a building attached
    > to (and ancillary to) a dwelling isn't.


    It rather depends on the original use of that attached part of the building.
    If it is/was agricultural then this overrides whether it is attached to the
    main house or not - or at least that's how my local authority sees it.
    Mike, Jun 18, 2005
    #17
  18. David WE Roberts

    Mike Guest

    "Hugo Nebula" <abuse@localhost> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:54:16 GMT, a particular chimpanzee named
    > Lobster <> randomly hit the keyboard and
    > produced:
    >
    > >Well you might grin if you saw my 'barn conversion' - the outhouse
    > >concerned is little more than outside-loo size and will add about 5 sqm
    > >to the house!

    >
    > If it's less than 6m², then it only has to be insulated to the
    > standard of the existing dwelling.


    That's an interesting and useful guideline.

    Could you possibly let us know where it is defined ?

    Many thanks
    Mike, Jun 18, 2005
    #18
  19. David WE Roberts

    Mike Guest

    "Roger" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > The message <d8v9fu$76m$>
    > from "Mike" <> contains these words:
    >
    > > That said, I've just brought an old farmhouse up to exceed the

    requirements
    > > for a modern build and generally found that once you do have to add
    > > insulation anywhere (which for an old building is everywhere !) the cost

    of
    > > meeting the regs isn't generally that much extra provided you plan it

    well
    > > from the start.

    >
    > How did you insulate your external walls?


    A 60mm timber stud mounted about 1" from the wall (varies rather as wall is
    random stone) filled with 60mm Kingspan between the timbers then
    plasterboarded. All the cavities are ventilated to the outside (upstairs to
    the eaves, downstairs through new or existing air vents roughly every 2
    metres) so the stone doesn't contribute that much to the insulation, not
    that it did before - U value of a stone wall is only slightly better than
    steel anyway - but at least it holds the roof and joists up and keeps the
    rain off the insulation.
    Mike, Jun 18, 2005
    #19
  20. David WE Roberts

    Hugo Nebula Guest

    On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:33:46 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named
    "Mike" <> randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

    >It rather depends on the original use of that attached part of the building.
    >If it is/was agricultural then this overrides whether it is attached to the
    >main house or not - or at least that's how my local authority sees it.
    >

    Which is what the bit "ancillary to" means. If the attached building
    is used in conjunction with the dwelling (such as a garage or
    workshop), then it counts as part of the dwelling and any alteration
    to form it into part of the habitable accommodation isn't a "change of
    use" under the Building Regulations. If the building was a separate
    use (agriculture, commercial), then any change to make it into a
    dwelling _is_ a "material change of use".

    Other Regulations (Planning, Rating) may have different criteria.
    --
    Hugo Nebula
    "If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
    just how far from the pack have you strayed?"
    Hugo Nebula, Jun 19, 2005
    #20
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