Angle grinder for cutting wood

Discussion in 'Home Repair' started by john hamilton, May 15, 2010.

  1. Novice has small angle grinder (takes discs 115 mm with central hole
    diameter 22mm). The discs i've already got for it are for grinding tiles and
    metal.

    Having knocked down a very old cedar garden shed, I want to cut up all the
    wood. I'm wondering if i buy one of the diamond discs available for it,
    whether that would be reasonably ok for cutting wood with? I cannot find
    any discs that are said to be specifially for wood for this type of angle
    grinder.

    Some of the shed cladding wood is very thin (with nails all over the place)
    so i think the usual circular saw for wood would be a bit too hefty and
    vigourous on this thin wood of the shed. Grateful for any suggestions on
    the best type of circular disc to go for. Thanks.
    john hamilton, May 15, 2010
    #1
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  2. john hamilton

    Guest

    On Sat, 15 May 2010 21:00:53 +0100, "john hamilton" <>
    wrote:

    >Novice has small angle grinder (takes discs 115 mm with central hole
    >diameter 22mm). The discs i've already got for it are for grinding tiles and
    >metal.
    >
    >Having knocked down a very old cedar garden shed, I want to cut up all the
    >wood. I'm wondering if i buy one of the diamond discs available for it,
    >whether that would be reasonably ok for cutting wood with? I cannot find
    >any discs that are said to be specifially for wood for this type of angle
    >grinder.


    No. A grinder will more likely start the wood on fire than cut it. There is
    good reason you don't find wood "blades" for an angle grinder. It's
    absolutely the wrong tool for the job.

    >Some of the shed cladding wood is very thin (with nails all over the place)
    >so i think the usual circular saw for wood would be a bit too hefty and
    >vigourous on this thin wood of the shed. Grateful for any suggestions on
    >the best type of circular disc to go for. Thanks.


    A circular saw will work fine. Be careful with nails, though. A circular saw
    will cut them (as long as you don't care about the blade) but it might throw
    them too. Wear *lots* of protection. A "Sawsall" (reciprocating saw) is a
    better tool for the job, though.
    , May 15, 2010
    #2
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  3. john hamilton

    js.b1 Guest

    Diamond blade plus angle grinder on a treet stump killed someone
    recently (kickback into neck). Suicidal.

    You can use a cheap jigsaw with wood ripping blade if you cut them
    over a table. Very quick unless stuff is >2in thick.
    You can use a reciprocating saw - like a normal handsaw but two blades
    driven like hedge trimmer blades, but they cost somewhat more (better
    for chopping thro old studwork).

    I would not suggest even a handheld circular because of the risk - you
    are working "sloppy-fast" which could result in kickback or accidents.
    The jigsaw would probably be best for thin cladding (shiplap etc), a
    lot quicker than you realise.
    js.b1, May 15, 2010
    #3
  4. john hamilton

    Oren Guest

    On Sat, 15 May 2010 21:00:53 +0100, "john hamilton"
    <> wrote:

    >Novice has small angle grinder (takes discs 115 mm with central hole
    >diameter 22mm). The discs i've already got for it are for grinding tiles and
    >metal.
    >
    >Having knocked down a very old cedar garden shed, I want to cut up all the
    >wood. I'm wondering if i buy one of the diamond discs available for it,
    >whether that would be reasonably ok for cutting wood with? I cannot find
    >any discs that are said to be specifially for wood for this type of angle
    >grinder.
    >
    >Some of the shed cladding wood is very thin (with nails all over the place)
    >so i think the usual circular saw for wood would be a bit too hefty and
    >vigourous on this thin wood of the shed. Grateful for any suggestions on
    >the best type of circular disc to go for. Thanks.
    >


    The best "circular disc" is the one on your "circular saw". It was
    mentioned about using the right tool for the job.

    Got a sharp axe, matches maybe?
    Oren, May 15, 2010
    #4
  5. john hamilton

    JIMMIE Guest

    On May 15, 4:00 pm, "john hamilton" <> wrote:
    > Novice has small angle grinder (takes discs 115 mm with central hole
    > diameter 22mm). The discs i've already got for it are for grinding tiles and
    > metal.
    >
    > Having knocked down a very old cedar garden shed, I want to cut up all the
    > wood. I'm wondering if i buy one of the diamond discs available for it,
    > whether that would be reasonably ok for cutting wood with?  I cannot find
    > any discs that are said to be specifially for wood for this type of angle
    > grinder.
    >
    > Some of the shed cladding wood is very thin (with nails all over the place)
    > so i think the usual circular saw for wood would be a bit too hefty and
    > vigourous on this thin wood of the shed.   Grateful for any suggestionson
    > the best type of circular disc to go for.   Thanks.


    A wood cutting plade for an angle grinder is available. I is a disk
    with chainsaw teeth on it. Think it is used for carving. Definitly not
    what you want.

    Jimmie
    JIMMIE, May 15, 2010
    #5
  6. On Sat, 15 May 2010 13:22:33 -0700 (PDT), js.b1 wrote:

    > The jigsaw would probably be best for thin cladding (shiplap etc), a
    > lot quicker than you realise.


    The OP hasn't said what he intends to do with the cut wood. If it's
    for a wood burner reasonably uniform size and few splinters is
    desirable. Sawing would be the best, I used my table saw (and an old
    blade) to cut down the shiplap from our shed refurbishment. That was
    for the open fire.

    If it's just to make managable for a bonfire, the quickest will be
    snapping though over ones knee will probably end up with a bruised
    knee fairly quickly. Much better to have a block on the ground a few
    inches high and tough pair of boots and use your weight or a stomp to
    break it up. I reckon that will be faster than a jigsaw and you still
    have the problem of holding the timber.

    --
    Cheers
    Dave.
    Dave Liquorice, May 15, 2010
    #6
  7. john hamilton

    Lee Michaels Guest

    "john hamilton" <> wrote in message
    news:hsmuhp$g0n$-september.org...
    > Novice has small angle grinder (takes discs 115 mm with central hole
    > diameter 22mm). The discs i've already got for it are for grinding tiles
    > and metal.
    >
    > Having knocked down a very old cedar garden shed, I want to cut up all the
    > wood. I'm wondering if i buy one of the diamond discs available for it,
    > whether that would be reasonably ok for cutting wood with? I cannot find
    > any discs that are said to be specifially for wood for this type of angle
    > grinder.
    >
    > Some of the shed cladding wood is very thin (with nails all over the
    > place) so i think the usual circular saw for wood would be a bit too hefty
    > and vigourous on this thin wood of the shed. Grateful for any
    > suggestions on the best type of circular disc to go for. Thanks.
    >

    Sounds scary and dangerous. I would not recommend it. But there is a carving
    disc for the mini grinder.

    http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/20...l-Blade-for-Mini-Grinder-Woodworking-Kit.aspx

    The capacity for this thing to grab things and throw them into your body is
    probably infinite. The only way I would use anything like this if the
    material was locked down into a big, secure vise. I would also wear gloves,
    face protection and heavy clothing.

    In some ways this is like cutting small limbs with a chain saw. The saw
    grabs anything that is not solidly secured and throws it. And a certain
    percentage of the time it hits you. And it hurts.

    The number one rule of cutting anything small like this is to secure the
    stock before cutting it. Any movement of the stock can be dangerous.
    Lee Michaels, May 15, 2010
    #7
  8. john hamilton

    js.b1 Guest

    On May 15, 10:03 pm, aemeijers <> wrote:
    > What you need is a reciprocating saw with a demolition blade.
    > It is one long blade (not two, like the other post implied),
    > that goes back and forth like a handsaw.


    I think there are 2 types...
    - Alligator saw - double blades like a hedge trimmer
    - Demolition saw - single blade that just pumps away

    Unsure which is cheaper, but more search strings :)

    Alligator saws are more useful for general cutting.
    Demolition saws, well they are certainly good at that.
    js.b1, May 15, 2010
    #8
  9. john hamilton

    spamlet Guest

    "js.b1" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Diamond blade plus angle grinder on a treet stump killed someone
    > recently (kickback into neck). Suicidal.
    >
    > You can use a cheap jigsaw with wood ripping blade if you cut them
    > over a table. Very quick unless stuff is >2in thick.
    > You can use a reciprocating saw - like a normal handsaw but two blades
    > driven like hedge trimmer blades, but they cost somewhat more (better
    > for chopping thro old studwork).
    >
    > I would not suggest even a handheld circular because of the risk - you
    > are working "sloppy-fast" which could result in kickback or accidents.
    > The jigsaw would probably be best for thin cladding (shiplap etc), a
    > lot quicker than you realise.


    I have a very cheap Wilkinson's 'Swallow' jigsaw which came with a good
    selection of blades. After making up maybe 20' of fence going up a steep
    slope, from old rescued fence boards of all different lengths, I was amazed
    at how easy it was to put a nice profile right along the top using one of
    the longer coarsish blades. Should be fine for your shed.

    I also did almost buy a reciprocating saw in either Aldi of Lidl when they
    were going v cheap last year. At the time though, I thought I'd always be
    fit enough to use hand saws...

    S
    spamlet, May 15, 2010
    #9
  10. john hamilton

    Tim Watts Guest

    On 15/05/10 21:00, john hamilton wrote:
    > Novice has small angle grinder (takes discs 115 mm with central hole
    > diameter 22mm). The discs i've already got for it are for grinding tiles and
    > metal.
    >
    > Having knocked down a very old cedar garden shed, I want to cut up all the
    > wood. I'm wondering if i buy one of the diamond discs available for it,
    > whether that would be reasonably ok for cutting wood with? I cannot find
    > any discs that are said to be specifially for wood for this type of angle
    > grinder.
    >
    > Some of the shed cladding wood is very thin (with nails all over the place)
    > so i think the usual circular saw for wood would be a bit too hefty and
    > vigourous on this thin wood of the shed. Grateful for any suggestions on
    > the best type of circular disc to go for. Thanks.
    >
    >


    I saw some discs in Alsford Timber the other day that were available in
    9" and 12" (might have been a 4-odd inch too) that were advertised for
    wood, especially tree roots. They had some almighty lumps (1/8-1/4") of
    abrasive (maybe carbide) suck on the side. Looked bloody viscous - sadly
    I can't remember the name.

    A google for angle grinder and tree roots might turn up something... Or
    ring Alsfords in Hastings (assuming you're in the UK) and ask them what
    those bastard evil discs on the front counter in the display stand are
    called...

    --
    Tim Watts

    Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.
    Tim Watts, May 15, 2010
    #10
  11. john hamilton

    Tim Watts Guest

    On 15/05/10 23:53, Jim Yanik wrote:
    > Tim Watts<> wrote in
    > news:hsn749$dcj$-september.org:
    >
    >> On 15/05/10 21:00, john hamilton wrote:
    >>> Novice has small angle grinder (takes discs 115 mm with central hole
    >>> diameter 22mm). The discs i've already got for it are for grinding
    >>> tiles and metal.
    >>>
    >>> Having knocked down a very old cedar garden shed, I want to cut up
    >>> all the wood. I'm wondering if i buy one of the diamond discs
    >>> available for it, whether that would be reasonably ok for cutting
    >>> wood with? I cannot find any discs that are said to be specifially
    >>> for wood for this type of angle grinder.
    >>>
    >>> Some of the shed cladding wood is very thin (with nails all over the
    >>> place) so i think the usual circular saw for wood would be a bit too
    >>> hefty and vigourous on this thin wood of the shed. Grateful for any
    >>> suggestions on the best type of circular disc to go for. Thanks.
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> I saw some discs in Alsford Timber the other day that were available
    >> in 9" and 12" (might have been a 4-odd inch too) that were advertised
    >> for wood, especially tree roots. They had some almighty lumps
    >> (1/8-1/4") of abrasive (maybe carbide) suck on the side. Looked
    >> bloody viscous - sadly I can't remember the name.
    >>
    >> A google for angle grinder and tree roots might turn up something...
    >> Or ring Alsfords in Hastings (assuming you're in the UK) and ask them
    >> what those bastard evil discs on the front counter in the display
    >> stand are called...
    >>

    >
    > diamond discs would gum up from resins and overheat quickly.
    > They are made for ceramics and metals,not wood.
    >


    It wasn't a diamond disc - very clearly nothing like one to the eye - in
    fact I've never seen anything like it before...

    --
    Tim Watts

    Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.
    Tim Watts, May 16, 2010
    #11
  12. john hamilton

    Nonny Guest

    "Tim Watts" <> wrote in message
    news:hsn9in$36m$-september.org...
    > On 15/05/10 23:53, Jim Yanik wrote:
    >> Tim Watts<> wrote in
    >> news:hsn749$dcj$-september.org:
    >>
    >>> On 15/05/10 21:00, john hamilton wrote:
    >>>> Novice has small angle grinder (takes discs 115 mm with
    >>>> central hole
    >>>> diameter 22mm). The discs i've already got for it are for
    >>>> grinding
    >>>> tiles and metal.
    >>>>
    >>>> Having knocked down a very old cedar garden shed, I want to
    >>>> cut up
    >>>> all the wood. I'm wondering if i buy one of the diamond discs
    >>>> available for it, whether that would be reasonably ok for
    >>>> cutting
    >>>> wood with? I cannot find any discs that are said to be
    >>>> specifially
    >>>> for wood for this type of angle grinder.
    >>>>
    >>>> Some of the shed cladding wood is very thin (with nails all
    >>>> over the
    >>>> place) so i think the usual circular saw for wood would be a
    >>>> bit too
    >>>> hefty and vigourous on this thin wood of the shed. Grateful
    >>>> for any
    >>>> suggestions on the best type of circular disc to go for.
    >>>> Thanks.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> I saw some discs in Alsford Timber the other day that were
    >>> available
    >>> in 9" and 12" (might have been a 4-odd inch too) that were
    >>> advertised
    >>> for wood, especially tree roots. They had some almighty lumps
    >>> (1/8-1/4") of abrasive (maybe carbide) suck on the side.
    >>> Looked
    >>> bloody viscous - sadly I can't remember the name.
    >>>
    >>> A google for angle grinder and tree roots might turn up
    >>> something...
    >>> Or ring Alsfords in Hastings (assuming you're in the UK) and
    >>> ask them
    >>> what those bastard evil discs on the front counter in the
    >>> display
    >>> stand are called...
    >>>

    >>
    >> diamond discs would gum up from resins and overheat quickly.
    >> They are made for ceramics and metals,not wood.
    >>

    >
    > It wasn't a diamond disc - very clearly nothing like one to the
    > eye - in fact I've never seen anything like it before...
    >
    > --
    > Tim Watts
    >
    > Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.


    I've seen 4" blades for angle grinders that incorporate a chainsaw
    chain. They're used for coarse shaping for carvings. In fact, I
    saw one in use making a totem pole in Alaska and it really worked
    well.

    I also have seen a 4" disk with extremely coarse carbide crystals
    on it, but it was for use in an oscillating saw that just looked
    like an angle grinder, and was used more for sanding than for
    cutting.

    --
    Nonny
    On most days,
    it's just not worth
    the effort of chewing
    through the restraints..
    Nonny, May 16, 2010
    #12
  13. john hamilton

    DanG Guest

    diamond will absolutely NOT be any good whatsoever in wood.

    If it's so thin, just snap it over your knee. If you can't snap
    it over your knee, you need a circular saw and carbide blade. You
    could use a jig saw or reciprocating saw if that was something you
    already had. There are wood cutting blades for offset grinders,
    but they are VERY dangerous unless you are well versed in their
    use and even then can really hurt you - I would NOT suggest one.

    --
    ______________________________
    Keep the whole world singing . . . .
    DanG (remove the sevens)




    "john hamilton" <> wrote in message
    news:hsmuhp$g0n$-september.org...
    > Novice has small angle grinder (takes discs 115 mm with central
    > hole diameter 22mm). The discs i've already got for it are for
    > grinding tiles and metal.
    >
    > Having knocked down a very old cedar garden shed, I want to cut
    > up all the wood. I'm wondering if i buy one of the diamond discs
    > available for it, whether that would be reasonably ok for
    > cutting wood with? I cannot find any discs that are said to be
    > specifially for wood for this type of angle grinder.
    >
    > Some of the shed cladding wood is very thin (with nails all over
    > the place) so i think the usual circular saw for wood would be a
    > bit too hefty and vigourous on this thin wood of the shed.
    > Grateful for any suggestions on the best type of circular disc
    > to go for. Thanks.
    >
    DanG, May 16, 2010
    #13
  14. john hamilton

    Mike Marlow Guest

    js.b1 wrote:

    > Diamond blade plus angle grinder on a treet stump killed someone
    > recently (kickback into neck). Suicidal.


    Bull. Diamond wheel on an angle grinder is the wrong combination, but not
    for that reason. Kickback has nothing to do with the wheel on the grinder,
    but instead has everything to do with where on contacts the wheel.
    Suicidal? Not at all. One stupid move on the part of a user does not make
    a tool suicidal.

    >
    > You can use a cheap jigsaw with wood ripping blade if you cut them
    > over a table. Very quick unless stuff is >2in thick.
    > You can use a reciprocating saw - like a normal handsaw but two blades
    > driven like hedge trimmer blades, but they cost somewhat more (better
    > for chopping thro old studwork).


    A reciprocating saw more typically just has one blade that simply, well...
    reciprocates.

    >
    > I would not suggest even a handheld circular because of the risk - you
    > are working "sloppy-fast" which could result in kickback or accidents.
    > The jigsaw would probably be best for thin cladding (shiplap etc), a
    > lot quicker than you realise.


    It's fairly difficult to develop kickback with a circular saw. Not
    impossible, but not easy. A circular saw would make a good choice for
    materials 1/2" and up. Below that, I'd probably just break the stuff over
    my knee...

    --

    -Mike-
    Mike Marlow, May 16, 2010
    #14
  15. spamlet has brought this to us :
    > I also did almost buy a reciprocating saw in either Aldi of Lidl when they
    > were going v cheap last year. At the time though, I thought I'd always be
    > fit enough to use hand saws...


    The reciprocating saw will fit and cut, where you cannot possibly get a
    hand saw into. I have found mine to be particularly useful for cutting
    tree roots, whilst still buried in the ground.

    --
    Regards,
    Harry (M1BYT) (L)
    http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk
    Harry Bloomfield, May 16, 2010
    #15
  16. Mike Marlow wrote:
    > js.b1 wrote:
    >
    >> Diamond blade plus angle grinder on a treet stump killed someone
    >> recently (kickback into neck). Suicidal.

    >
    > Bull. Diamond wheel on an angle grinder is the wrong combination,
    > but not for that reason. Kickback has nothing to do with the wheel
    > on the grinder, but instead has everything to do with where on
    > contacts the wheel. Suicidal? Not at all. One stupid move on the
    > part of a user does not make a tool suicidal.


    More like homicidal then. You wouldn't get me within 10' of one. Madness.


    --
    Dave - The Medway Handyman
    www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
    The Medway Handyman, May 16, 2010
    #16
  17. john hamilton

    tony sayer Guest

    In article <>, Harry
    Bloomfield <> scribeth thus
    >spamlet has brought this to us :
    >> I also did almost buy a reciprocating saw in either Aldi of Lidl when they
    >> were going v cheap last year. At the time though, I thought I'd always be
    >> fit enough to use hand saws...

    >
    >The reciprocating saw will fit and cut, where you cannot possibly get a
    >hand saw into. I have found mine to be particularly useful for cutting
    >tree roots, whilst still buried in the ground.
    >


    Bet you go thru the blades doing that;!...

    Which one have U got?..


    73's
    --
    Tony Sayer
    tony sayer, May 16, 2010
    #17
  18. john hamilton

    Bruce Guest

    On Sun, 16 May 2010 10:09:46 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
    <> wrote:

    >In article <DkOHn.43139$2>,
    > The Medway Handyman <> wrote:
    >> Mike Marlow wrote:
    >> > js.b1 wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> Diamond blade plus angle grinder on a treet stump killed someone
    >> >> recently (kickback into neck). Suicidal.
    >> >
    >> > Bull. Diamond wheel on an angle grinder is the wrong combination,
    >> > but not for that reason. Kickback has nothing to do with the wheel
    >> > on the grinder, but instead has everything to do with where on
    >> > contacts the wheel. Suicidal? Not at all. One stupid move on the
    >> > part of a user does not make a tool suicidal.

    >
    >> More like homicidal then. You wouldn't get me within 10' of one.
    >> Madness.

    >
    >Angle grinders scare me enough when used on the things they're meant for,
    >with the correct blade. Dunno what I'm doing on this group. ;-)



    Time you bought that pressure washer. :)
    Bruce, May 16, 2010
    #18
  19. tony sayer presented the following explanation :
    > In article <>, Harry
    > Bloomfield <> scribeth thus
    >> spamlet has brought this to us :
    >>> I also did almost buy a reciprocating saw in either Aldi of Lidl when they
    >>> were going v cheap last year. At the time though, I thought I'd always be
    >>> fit enough to use hand saws...

    >>
    >> The reciprocating saw will fit and cut, where you cannot possibly get a
    >> hand saw into. I have found mine to be particularly useful for cutting
    >> tree roots, whilst still buried in the ground.
    >>

    >
    > Bet you go thru the blades doing that;!...


    No, none have worn out yet. I've managed to cut 12" trees down with it,
    lots of roots and cut 4" alloy bar stock.

    >
    > Which one have U got?..


    The blue black Aldi variable speed one. The spring which closes the
    lever for foot adjustment seems to have weakened (may just be choked up
    with saw dust), other than that it works well.

    --
    Regards,
    Harry (M1BYT) (L)
    http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk
    Harry Bloomfield, May 16, 2010
    #19
  20. john hamilton

    stuart noble Guest

    Nonny wrote:
    >
    > "Tim Watts" <> wrote in message
    > news:hsn9in$36m$-september.org...
    >> On 15/05/10 23:53, Jim Yanik wrote:
    >>> Tim Watts<> wrote in
    >>> news:hsn749$dcj$-september.org:
    >>>
    >>>> On 15/05/10 21:00, john hamilton wrote:
    >>>>> Novice has small angle grinder (takes discs 115 mm with central hole
    >>>>> diameter 22mm). The discs i've already got for it are for grinding
    >>>>> tiles and metal.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Having knocked down a very old cedar garden shed, I want to cut up
    >>>>> all the wood. I'm wondering if i buy one of the diamond discs
    >>>>> available for it, whether that would be reasonably ok for cutting
    >>>>> wood with? I cannot find any discs that are said to be specifially
    >>>>> for wood for this type of angle grinder.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Some of the shed cladding wood is very thin (with nails all over the
    >>>>> place) so i think the usual circular saw for wood would be a bit too
    >>>>> hefty and vigourous on this thin wood of the shed. Grateful for any
    >>>>> suggestions on the best type of circular disc to go for. Thanks.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> I saw some discs in Alsford Timber the other day that were available
    >>>> in 9" and 12" (might have been a 4-odd inch too) that were advertised
    >>>> for wood, especially tree roots. They had some almighty lumps
    >>>> (1/8-1/4") of abrasive (maybe carbide) suck on the side. Looked
    >>>> bloody viscous - sadly I can't remember the name.
    >>>>
    >>>> A google for angle grinder and tree roots might turn up something...
    >>>> Or ring Alsfords in Hastings (assuming you're in the UK) and ask them
    >>>> what those bastard evil discs on the front counter in the display
    >>>> stand are called...
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> diamond discs would gum up from resins and overheat quickly.
    >>> They are made for ceramics and metals,not wood.
    >>>

    >>
    >> It wasn't a diamond disc - very clearly nothing like one to the eye -
    >> in fact I've never seen anything like it before...
    >>
    >> --
    >> Tim Watts
    >>
    >> Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

    >
    > I've seen 4" blades for angle grinders that incorporate a chainsaw
    > chain. They're used for coarse shaping for carvings. In fact, I saw
    > one in use making a totem pole in Alaska and it really worked well.
    >
    > I also have seen a 4" disk with extremely coarse carbide crystals on it,
    > but it was for use in an oscillating saw that just looked like an angle
    > grinder, and was used more for sanding than for cutting.
    >

    A sawblade has individual teeth is so that the debris from the material
    being cut can be thrown clear of the next tooth. If the blade cannot
    clear itself, there is just friction but no cutting.
    In the old days B&D used to do a 5" circular saw blade as a drill
    attachment. Can't imagine what it could have been used for, but at least
    it wasn't spinning at 10,000 rpm
    stuart noble, May 16, 2010
    #20
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