A bid to make BSI docs more widely available.

Discussion in 'UK DIY' started by Ed Sirett, May 10, 2006.

  1. Ed Sirett

    Ed Sirett Guest

    The other day it occurred to me that in the semi-legal world of ebay
    someone would sooner or later be putting out PDFs of BSI publications.

    Lo and behold there is an outfit that will send you a PDF for £5 or will
    print and post it to you for £15.

    Sooner or later they may be in trouble.

    Because I think this is the right move for gas safety and other
    construction related matters. I intend to purchase a few of these
    (starting with BS5440 - the standard for flues to domestic gas
    appliances below 70kW) I will then put them on my web site.
    This seems a more open way than happens at present.
    Gas colleges and test centres have these 'Bibles' chained to the desks!
    And with a retail price of £140 it's not surprising.

    If ordinary people can read for themselves what the rights and wrongs
    of a matter this has got to be better than hearing snippets from
    BG and CORGI 'priests'.

    I trust this may be a useful resource (see the thread BG going OTT...)


    --
    Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
    The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
    Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
    Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
    Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
    Ed Sirett, May 10, 2006
    #1
  2. Ed Sirett

    Guy King Guest

    The message <>
    from Ed Sirett <> contains these words:

    > If ordinary people can read for themselves what the rights and wrongs
    > of a matter this has got to be better than hearing snippets from
    > BG and CORGI 'priests'.


    Quite right too. They're /our/ rules.

    I know ignorance of the law is no defence, but charging for finding out
    what the law is smacks of Gilliam's Brazil.

    --
    Skipweasel
    Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
    Guy King, May 10, 2006
    #2
  3. Ed Sirett

    Steve Walker Guest

    Guy King wrote:
    > The message <>
    > from Ed Sirett <> contains these words:
    >
    >> If ordinary people can read for themselves what the rights and
    >> wrongs of a matter this has got to be better than hearing
    >> snippets from
    >> BG and CORGI 'priests'.

    >
    > Quite right too. They're /our/ rules.
    >
    > I know ignorance of the law is no defence, but charging for
    > finding out what the law is smacks of Gilliam's Brazil.


    I am Sam Lowry, AICMFP
    Steve Walker, May 10, 2006
    #3
  4. Ed Sirett

    Lobster Guest

    Ed Sirett wrote:
    > The other day it occurred to me that in the semi-legal world of ebay
    > someone would sooner or later be putting out PDFs of BSI publications.
    >
    > Lo and behold there is an outfit that will send you a PDF for £5 or will
    > print and post it to you for £15.
    >
    > Sooner or later they may be in trouble.
    >
    > Because I think this is the right move for gas safety and other
    > construction related matters. I intend to purchase a few of these
    > (starting with BS5440 - the standard for flues to domestic gas
    > appliances below 70kW) I will then put them on my web site.
    > This seems a more open way than happens at present.


    Good man - but won't you be making yourself vulnerable to legal action
    from BSI? I don't know what arrangement this other outfit may or may
    not already have with them regarding copyright?

    David
    Lobster, May 11, 2006
    #4
  5. Ed Sirett

    Jason Guest

    "Lobster" <> wrote in message
    news:Aru8g.16791$...
    > Ed Sirett wrote:
    >> The other day it occurred to me that in the semi-legal world of ebay
    >> someone would sooner or later be putting out PDFs of BSI publications.
    >>
    >> Lo and behold there is an outfit that will send you a PDF for £5 or will
    >> print and post it to you for £15. Sooner or later they may be in trouble.
    >>
    >> Because I think this is the right move for gas safety and other
    >> construction related matters. I intend to purchase a few of these
    >> (starting with BS5440 - the standard for flues to domestic gas
    >> appliances below 70kW) I will then put them on my web site. This seems a
    >> more open way than happens at present.

    >
    > Good man - but won't you be making yourself vulnerable to legal action
    > from BSI? I don't know what arrangement this other outfit may or may not
    > already have with them regarding copyright?


    If they are selling the standards for 5 and 10 quid a pop, then they will
    certainly not have any arrangement.

    -- Jason
    Jason, May 11, 2006
    #5
  6. Ed Sirett

    John Rumm Guest

    Ed Sirett wrote:

    > The other day it occurred to me that in the semi-legal world of ebay
    > someone would sooner or later be putting out PDFs of BSI publications.
    >
    > Lo and behold there is an outfit that will send you a PDF for £5 or will
    > print and post it to you for £15.


    Don't sound that semi-legal to me ;-)

    > Sooner or later they may be in trouble.
    >
    > Because I think this is the right move for gas safety and other
    > construction related matters. I intend to purchase a few of these
    > (starting with BS5440 - the standard for flues to domestic gas
    > appliances below 70kW) I will then put them on my web site.


    Somewhere on a P2P network may be a little "safer" I would have thought...

    > This seems a more open way than happens at present.


    Quite agree! If they are going to be cited in law as being mandatory
    then they ought to be free.

    > Gas colleges and test centres have these 'Bibles' chained to the desks!
    > And with a retail price of £140 it's not surprising.


    Wonder if the can do the CD version of BS7671, now that would be handy!

    > If ordinary people can read for themselves what the rights and wrongs
    > of a matter this has got to be better than hearing snippets from
    > BG and CORGI 'priests'.


    You heretic! ;-)

    > I trust this may be a useful resource (see the thread BG going OTT...)




    --
    Cheers,

    John.

    /=================================================================\
    | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
    |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
    | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
    \=================================================================/
    John Rumm, May 11, 2006
    #6
  7. On Wed, 10 May 2006 21:37:49 +0100, Ed Sirett <>
    wrote:

    |The other day it occurred to me that in the semi-legal world of ebay
    |someone would sooner or later be putting out PDFs of BSI publications.

    Bradford Central Library has paper copies of BSI pubs on the Reference
    shelves. They also have copying machines.
    Other Central libraries may do the same.
    --
    Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> Google Groups is IME the *worst*
    method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
    newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
    will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.
    Dave Fawthrop, May 11, 2006
    #7
  8. In article <>,
    Ed Sirett <> writes:
    > The other day it occurred to me that in the semi-legal world of ebay
    > someone would sooner or later be putting out PDFs of BSI publications.


    I've long held the view that Acts and SI's must not be allowed
    to refer to documents which are not in the public domain (free
    download, or paper copies for no more than the printing cost).
    I believe this is actually the law in some US states. I wonder
    if the EU could be persuaded to impose this -- it must be good
    for something? ;-)

    The wiring regs did used to be available quite cheaply (before
    they were a BS). However, their current cost seems to mean
    most electricians don't even have copies any more.

    --
    Andrew Gabriel
    Andrew Gabriel, May 11, 2006
    #8
  9. Ed Sirett

    Guy King Guest

    The message <>
    from "Steve Walker" <> contains these words:

    > I am Sam Lowry, AICMFP


    Some day I'm going to make up a teeshirt with him on it.

    --
    Skipweasel
    Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
    Guy King, May 11, 2006
    #9
  10. In article <4462e2d7$0$651$>,
    Andrew Gabriel <> wrote:
    > I've long held the view that Acts and SI's must not be allowed
    > to refer to documents which are not in the public domain (free
    > download, or paper copies for no more than the printing cost).
    > I believe this is actually the law in some US states. I wonder
    > if the EU could be persuaded to impose this -- it must be good
    > for something? ;-)


    > The wiring regs did used to be available quite cheaply (before
    > they were a BS). However, their current cost seems to mean
    > most electricians don't even have copies any more.


    I totally agree. It's what happens when you allow private profit making
    companies to get involved in regulation, etc. All state backed regulations
    should be available - in electronic form - for free, or at a nominal cost
    in hard copy, like the Highway Code.

    --
    *How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost?

    Dave Plowman London SW
    To e-mail, change noise into sound.
    Dave Plowman (News), May 11, 2006
    #10
  11. Ed Sirett

    fred Guest

    In article <>,
    Ed Sirett <> writes
    >Because I think this is the right move for gas safety and other
    >construction related matters. I intend to purchase a few of these
    >(starting with BS5440 - the standard for flues to domestic gas
    >appliances below 70kW) I will then put them on my web site.


    A safer bet may be to anonymously post copies to a suitable binary
    newsgroup with occasional reminders here that they have been known to
    appear in such a place occasionally.
    --
    fred
    Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla
    fred, May 11, 2006
    #11
  12. Ed Sirett

    Guest

    fred wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > Ed Sirett <> writes
    > >Because I think this is the right move for gas safety and other
    > >construction related matters. I intend to purchase a few of these
    > >(starting with BS5440 - the standard for flues to domestic gas
    > >appliances below 70kW) I will then put them on my web site.

    >
    > A safer bet may be to anonymously post copies to a suitable binary
    > newsgroup with occasional reminders here that they have been known to
    > appear in such a place occasionally.
    > --
    > fred
    > Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla


    All the BSI standards are already recorded on CD by a company on behalf
    of the BSI. I'll ask my relation who works for them if a CD is
    available.
    , May 11, 2006
    #12
  13. Ed Sirett

    Guy King Guest

    The message <>
    from fred <> contains these words:

    > A safer bet may be to anonymously post copies to a suitable binary
    > newsgroup with occasional reminders here that they have been known to
    > appear in such a place occasionally.


    alt.binaries.pictures.gas-regs.spreadwide?

    --
    Skipweasel
    Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
    Guy King, May 11, 2006
    #13
  14. Ed Sirett

    Guest

    On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:20:00 +0100, Guy King <>
    wrote:

    >The message <>
    >from fred <> contains these words:
    >
    >> A safer bet may be to anonymously post copies to a suitable binary
    >> newsgroup with occasional reminders here that they have been known to
    >> appear in such a place occasionally.

    >
    >alt.binaries.pictures.gas-regs.spreadwide?


    It also seems perverse that the Health & Safety Exec charge for many
    of their documents.

    If the government really wanted to promote safety they would make
    these and BSI documents available free rather than creating expensive
    schemes like Part P.
    Robert
    , May 11, 2006
    #14
  15. Ed Sirett

    Dave Guest

    nightjar <nightjar@ wrote:
    > "Ed Sirett" <> wrote in message
    > news:p...
    >
    >>If ordinary people can read for themselves what the rights and wrongs
    >>of a matter this has got to be better than hearing snippets from
    >>BG and CORGI 'priests'.

    >
    >
    > You can do that down my local Public Library.


    Unfortunately, you can only print off ten percent of the content.
    I ran into this problem when I wanted to get hold of a B.S. for ladders
    for school. I went to my local library and they gave me a PIN number and
    told me to go to the central library, where I could brows on line. Not
    much good to me when I have to prove to HSE that I am complying with the
    reg.

    Im on the side of Ed on this. If I want to see what a particular act of
    parliament says, I can sit and read it in my local library. Why is it
    not the same for a B.S?

    Dave
    Dave, May 11, 2006
    #15
  16. Ed Sirett

    Ed Sirett Guest

    On Wed, 10 May 2006 23:12:32 +0000, Lobster wrote:

    > Ed Sirett wrote:
    >> The other day it occurred to me that in the semi-legal world of ebay
    >> someone would sooner or later be putting out PDFs of BSI publications.
    >>
    >> Lo and behold there is an outfit that will send you a PDF for £5 or will
    >> print and post it to you for £15.
    >>
    >> Sooner or later they may be in trouble.
    >>
    >> Because I think this is the right move for gas safety and other
    >> construction related matters. I intend to purchase a few of these
    >> (starting with BS5440 - the standard for flues to domestic gas
    >> appliances below 70kW) I will then put them on my web site.
    >> This seems a more open way than happens at present.

    >
    > Good man - but won't you be making yourself vulnerable to legal action
    > from BSI? I don't know what arrangement this other outfit may or may
    > not already have with them regarding copyright?
    >

    Firstly they would probably go for the ebay source who after his/her
    initial investment gets £5 a doc.

    Secondly the maximum they could reasonably ask me for is the full price
    (about £1500 if I get the full set of gas fitting ones). They won't get
    that without me having my day in court to explain myself.


    --
    Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
    The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
    Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
    Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
    Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
    Gas Fitting Standards Docs here: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards
    Ed Sirett, May 11, 2006
    #16
  17. Ed Sirett

    Ed Sirett Guest

    On Thu, 11 May 2006 07:08:07 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > Ed Sirett <> writes:
    >> The other day it occurred to me that in the semi-legal world of ebay
    >> someone would sooner or later be putting out PDFs of BSI publications.

    >
    > I've long held the view that Acts and SI's must not be allowed
    > to refer to documents which are not in the public domain (free
    > download, or paper copies for no more than the printing cost).
    > I believe this is actually the law in some US states. I wonder
    > if the EU could be persuaded to impose this -- it must be good
    > for something? ;-)
    >
    > The wiring regs did used to be available quite cheaply (before
    > they were a BS). However, their current cost seems to mean
    > most electricians don't even have copies any more.


    At £47 quid they are a snip. Beside which it's a comprehensive tome.
    The gas fitting set are spread through 17 come of which are quite small.

    --
    Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
    The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
    Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
    Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
    Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
    Gas Fitting Standards Docs here: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards
    Ed Sirett, May 11, 2006
    #17
  18. Ed Sirett

    Ed Sirett Guest

    On Thu, 11 May 2006 14:23:06 +0000, fred wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > Ed Sirett <> writes
    >>Because I think this is the right move for gas safety and other
    >>construction related matters. I intend to purchase a few of these
    >>(starting with BS5440 - the standard for flues to domestic gas
    >>appliances below 70kW) I will then put them on my web site.

    >
    > A safer bet may be to anonymously post copies to a suitable binary
    > newsgroup with occasional reminders here that they have been known to
    > appear in such a place occasionally.


    I'm not a dishonest person, I have no intention to be underhand. A bad law
    is one that should not be followed.
    The instigating case here was to help decide weather someone had been over
    zealous in applying the standard to the flue at an elderly person's home.



    --
    Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
    The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
    Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
    Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
    Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
    Gas Fitting Standards Docs here: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards
    Ed Sirett, May 11, 2006
    #18
  19. Ed Sirett

    Ed Sirett Guest

    On Thu, 11 May 2006 17:29:44 +0100, invlaid wrote:

    > On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:20:00 +0100, Guy King <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>The message <>
    >>from fred <> contains these words:
    >>
    >>> A safer bet may be to anonymously post copies to a suitable binary
    >>> newsgroup with occasional reminders here that they have been known to
    >>> appear in such a place occasionally.

    >>
    >>alt.binaries.pictures.gas-regs.spreadwide?

    >
    > It also seems perverse that the Health & Safety Exec charge for many
    > of their documents.
    >
    > If the government really wanted to promote safety they would make
    > these and BSI documents available free rather than creating expensive
    > schemes like Part P.


    I think you may be nearing the centre of the matter.

    --
    Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
    The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
    Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
    Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
    Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
    Gas Fitting Standards Docs here: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards
    Ed Sirett, May 11, 2006
    #19
  20. Ed Sirett

    Colin Wilson Guest

    > > .... All state backed regulations
    > > should be available - in electronic form - for free, or at a nominal cost

    > In other words, they should be paid for out of general taxation, so that all
    > tax payers bear the cost, instead of just the people who actually want them.


    We`ve already paid for them - the least they can do is make them
    accessible !
    Colin Wilson, May 11, 2006
    #20

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